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  #13  
Old September 23rd, 2019, 10:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Hmmm well I can understand certain feelings and vitriol towards the project and this process. It often does seem rather limited and could be considered a problem in the face of continuing the game we all enjoy so much. Which has now been discontinued for the better part of this decade. Xotli wrote similar things iterating every detail when he left C3V a few years ago. I agree C3G does feel far more open for opportunities and their expansion of the game is and always has been stupendous. They of course do have the benefit of almost being able to build the Superheroes side of the game from the ground up, where as C3V/SOV has had to work within a much larger established game. That both limits things and makes it more complex by far. Marvel and DC have done the work for C3G. Trying to fit concepts that will work well in classic Heroscape isnít easy. Now while I believe this type of discussion is important it doesnít seem the place for tearing people down.

C3V and SoV! Fanscape r0xxorz!!
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  #14  
Old September 23rd, 2019, 11:03 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post
Hmmm well I can understand certain feelings and vitriol towards the project and this process. It often does seem rather limited and could be considered a problem in the face of continuing the game we all enjoy so much. Which has now been discontinued for the better part of this decade. Xotli wrote similar things iterating every detail when he left C3V a few years ago. I agree C3G does feel far more open for opportunities and their expansion of the game is and always has been stupendous. They of course do have the benefit of almost being able to build the Superheroes side of the game from the ground up, where as C3V/SOV has had to work within a much larger established game. That both limits things and makes it more complex by far. Marvel and DC have done the work for C3G. Trying to fit concepts that will work well in classic Heroscape isn’t easy. Now while I believe this type of discussion is important it doesn’t seem the place for tearing people down.
First of all, everything robbdaman said. Down to every detail.

Second of all, some historical perspective.

Back in the stone ages, prior to the invention of the wheel, the customs community was very different. It was wholly unconstrained, with (as far as I can remember) relatively little effort put into making things balanced for competitive play. And why should there be? The official designers took care of that. People made things like zombies carrying barrels of dynamite, which can be viewed early in this thread, because the official designers sure as heck weren't going there.

When the game was discontinued, though, the C3V and the SoV rose from the ashes to fill that gap. It was never our intention to be the gold standard for all customs. Just to identify the ones suitable for a continuation of the canon. I am fairly confident that each current judge of the SoV feels the same: people should design for themselves, and the ones that look right for the canon should come here. At the time, I thought (and I wasn't the only one) that we would see mostly people digging up each other's worthy candidates and nominating *them*, rather than designing with us in mind.

What's happened, though, is that, by setting up the target, there has organically arisen a culture of sharpshooters. Who are great! I love that people are pushing to get units through the SoV, and designing with that in mind.

But it hasn't always been that way.

I applaud all the customs makers on this board. For myself, I am fond of the ones who surprise me, like LO and her goofy brain with legs as a science fiction scientist. I understand her grievance that the zaniness isn't what it used to be, that the culture has moved away from the Wild West it used to be. That we've changed.

Not that LO needs any defending from me. She is more than capable of looking after herself here. But I don't think there's much to gain from attempts to persuade on this point, by anybody. After all, you are all mostly right.

Except for Robb. He's completely right.

edit:
The Zombikazis. I love 'em.
Spoiler Alert!

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
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  #15  
Old September 23rd, 2019, 11:11 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I appreciate this conversation here. As I look in at the project from the outside Ive seen both sides of the conversation. I know there are standards to be met, but I see exactly where @Lazy Orang point of view lines up. This is one of the reasons you guys have never seen one of my designs come to this thread. I have talked to @Sir Heroscape privately about it a small amount. Ultimately watching the discussion has had a negative impact on my view of the project and reduced my interest in it. I do not expect any change in how things are run but it is nice to see some discussion about it.
Edit: The only reason I bother saying anything is because what happens here does affect me if I choose to go to a tournament, as these customs are allowed at the ones I now seldom participate in.

Last edited by TREX; September 24th, 2019 at 12:00 AM.
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  #16  
Old September 23rd, 2019, 11:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Yikes. There may be worthwhile criticism here, but it's buried by negativity.

I for one have a strong appreciation for the SoV and its process. The process feels necessarily critical - it makes sure quality comes out. If we are really going to compare it to C3G, I'm just going to say that SoV feels seamless next to classic, whereas C3G feels like something else entirely. I dont mean any disrespect to C3G, I have hundreds of their designs in my collection, but the openness and creativity has allowed it to evolve into it's own thing. I don't mind that for my Super Hero scaping, but don't want that for my integrated VC.

Metal minis don't feel seamless. It's like playing catch with a bucket of baseballs, but having a couple tennis balls in there. It just doesn't feel right.
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  #17  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:09 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion


Well met!

Let me re-begin by expressing my appreciation for everyone taking part in this conversation. Even and, perhaps, especially for those with whom I most disagree. Clarity, of a sort, emerges.

Soon after entering the obsession, I (with chas, Sherman Davies, and Taeblewalker - the Gang of Four) began experimenting with customs. There was a bit of conflict. But we are all agreed in accepting C3V and SoV. I’ve learned how to make better customs in general through the kind of focus submitting to SoV requires.

[Ninja'd while writing again.]

The Gang is going to test 4 of my customs on October 12. I'll most likely discuss the test over in the Pre-SoV forum. While presenting them, I'll present the process/philosophy of their creation - and in so doing, the broader issues of custom creation addressed herein.






Next Generation

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  #18  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:23 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Vitriol aside, I appreciate this discussion taking place. It is probably long overdo and I would recommend someone making a separate thread to continue the discussion provided that some ground rules are set in place to make sure its constructive.

I've been involved in Heroscape since the day it released but have had it in storage for a long time. When I was finally able to come back to the game after 6 years a few months ago, I was delighted that the VC community was still so active! Congratulations for such an achievement! I hope that there are many more years ahead for SOV and C3V. From a personal standpoint, I really enjoyed submitting my first custom to SOV and loved the feedback. It's great fun.

In that spirit, I would also like to add that for those who feel their personal goals and vision no longer are in line with the C3V and SOV to perhaps start their own projects with other community members. As far as I know, there is no written rule that says only these projects along with superscape and star wars can exists. The more the merrier I believe especially since It really does feel like some of the new generation of players have different ideas for the game. While the game was once made directly for kids, those kids have now grown up and may want to express their creativity in new ways. Mark my words, if the game was to re-released it would look much different than what we know. So please, don't be discouraged, be motivated and help grow the community.

I plan on taking my own advice and will propose a new custom project soon to fill a niche not currently covered by the VC community yet. For those who interact with me on the Facebook group and on this forum, you know I am very passionate about this game but passion alone isn't enough to start a project, you need community involvement and buy in. Hopefully I'm able to inspire others to join the project.

I hope that this discussion will inspire others to take proactive action and help the VC community improve by providing constructive feedback while at the same time investing in Heroscape as a whole to keep the game alive for future generations.

By the way, it's good to see lively discussion on this forum again!
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  #19  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:39 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I fully encourage people to start their own customs projects, and design their own customs that have nothing to do with SoV.

For better or for worse, VC is what it is. A few things have changed over the last 8-9 years, but for the most part we keep on our path. If we change things, it will be slowly and deliberately.

If you're a church guy like me, that makes us Presbyterians. We like the old ways

customs/maps/c3v/sov

how to:
make a card/post your maps

google sheets:
ohs link generator/attack outcomes

CVN~ "I highly recommend C3V customs!"
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  #20  
Old September 24th, 2019, 12:42 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I fully encourage people to start their own customs projects, and design their own customs that have nothing to do with SoV.

For better or for worse, VC is what it is. A few things have changed over the last 8-9 years, but for the most part we keep on our path. If we change things, it will be slowly and deliberately.

If you're a church guy like me, that makes us Presbyterians. We like the old ways

Haha great analogy! Looks like some of the charismatic non-denominational members need to create their own reformation
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  #21  
Old September 24th, 2019, 01:09 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

This game is fun, custom creating if fun, and the way I see it SoV and C3V encourage nothing but having more fun. I say forget all this and just enjoy the game. Something is better than nothing, and we definitely have something special here with all of VC. Can't say the same for C3G cause I know nothing about it, but I can imagine you wouldn't take kindly if I were to jump into your threads and start spouting obscenities about your process, products, projects and the people involved.
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  #22  
Old September 24th, 2019, 02:06 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

While I think that there's some over-emphasis on VC stuff, I think there's still a huge amount of just casual fun. At least in our Discord conversations about customs, we make the distinction.
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  #23  
Old September 24th, 2019, 09:46 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Edit: The only reason I bother saying anything is because what happens here does affect me if I choose to go to a tournament, as these customs are allowed at the ones I now seldom participate in.
Hmmmm.. I'm lucky to play Heroscape 2-3 times a year if that. For a discontinued game having a tournament available is a testament to it's support and the people who play it. Power creep is an issue, particularly in light of units like Cather Spearmen and other A and B units. C3V and SOV haven't put in many units that are below that mark and none that are below a considered C. Xotli mentioned this concern as well. Though overall the highest ranked units in classic 'scape still are as good as anything that has been created by C3V/SOV. Sure, I'd like to see some weird outliers added that aren't as expected to be played as much and of course terrain but it's just a limit of not truly manufacturing the game but adapting what exists. I'm sorry if you don't feel you can participate in games because of C3V/SOV if that is the case. That's not the intent at all of course. The fanscape continuation of the game is now almost as old as the original game from when it was first published and then discontinued. I'm just happy it is alive and well despite that.

C3V and SoV! Fanscape r0xxorz!!
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  #24  
Old September 24th, 2019, 10:05 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Edit: The only reason I bother saying anything is because what happens here does affect me if I choose to go to a tournament, as these customs are allowed at the ones I now seldom participate in.
Hmmmm.. I'm lucky to play Heroscape 2-3 times a year if that. For a discontinued game having a tournament available is a testament to it's support and the people who play it. Power creep is an issue, particularly in light of units like Cather Spearmen and other A and B units. C3V and SOV haven't put in many units that are below that mark and none that are below a considered C. Xotli mentioned this concern as well. Though overall the highest ranked units in classic 'scape still are as good as anything that has been created by C3V/SOV. Sure, I'd like to see some weird outliers added that aren't as expected to be played as much and of course terrain but it's just a limit of not truly manufacturing the game but adapting what exists. I'm sorry if you don't feel you can participate in games because of C3V/SOV if that is the case. That's not the intent at all of course. The fanscape continuation of the game is now almost as old as the original game from when it was first published and then discontinued. I'm just happy it is alive and well despite that.
I just agreed about some of the points being made about how I viewed the nature of this project. I also have supported these customs groups and know that they take alot of time and dedication. As I also said, I dont expect that the attitude in which I see some of the members acting, or others being treated to really change, that is where I see the problem. I dont care to talk further about it myself and will exit the discussion in this thread. You guys have a good day.
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