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  #13  
Old October 28th, 2012, 03:56 AM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

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Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
So glad to see this revived!

Our general opinion was that it may have been a bit conservative.

At some point, CornPuff produced a second, revised, version of his Legacy pricing, which he called Legacy: Evolution. It was more radical. Probably a bit too radical.


So... I'm glad to see that you're starting with the earlier (less extreme) price list.
Well thanks for the support!

It starts conservative, but we're hoping that it will be more realistic in future patches.

Evolution was way, way too radical. I really don't forsee any unit going past the 230 point mark that isn't a Marvel figure.

Give this time, and I'll be sure to have it be less conservative feeling. Even if it takes months, it will be worth the wait.

EDIT: I'm doing extensive play testing on many armies. Please be patient as I don't want to bog down this forum with posts of one match at a time.
The four armies posted are going to be played for between 7 and 12 games each, versing each other army an equal number of times.

It's also not going to be actual battle reports. Just general feels and thoughts on each army, as they are played.

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Last edited by The_X_Marker; October 28th, 2012 at 02:34 PM.
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  #14  
Old October 28th, 2012, 02:50 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

For his initial pricing, as I understand it, CornPuff began with the main Power Rankings maintained by spider_poison and Jexik, and crunched numbers from there.

But of course, they don't include the C3V/SoV units. Nor the impact that those new units have for changing the rankings of some older units. (Omegacron boosting the previously-awful Repulsors, for example, .)

dok's modified Power Rankings account for both, though. So it might be worthwhile starting there, for assigning points to C3V/SoV units and modifying the older units whose synergy with the new changes their value.
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  #15  
Old October 28th, 2012, 06:00 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

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Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
..............................
But of course, they don't include the C3V/SoV units. Nor the impact that those new units have for changing the rankings of some older units. ........
C3V/SoV if they have an impact on the value of the orignial units.... then maybe someone should be looking at the point values of C3V / SoV point costs and change them. The original figures as HS released them has to be the bench mark (not the other way around that would be foolish).

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  #16  
Old October 28th, 2012, 08:15 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
..............................
But of course, they don't include the C3V/SoV units. Nor the impact that those new units have for changing the rankings of some older units. ........
C3V/SoV if they have an impact on the value of the orignial units.... then maybe someone should be looking at the point values of C3V / SoV point costs and change them. The original figures as HS released them has to be the bench mark (not the other way around that would be foolish).
OK, I do not understand your statement Codeman.

Now, maybe you are not familiar with SoV/C3V, but our testing is based on the Original figures as a benchmark, but some of the SoV/C3V figures do change the metagame, thus changing the Power Rankings of original figures. That is what happens when new designs are entered into the game. From what I read from you post, you are saying the Power ranking should never change...but that is impossible when you introduce new elements. The game changes, adapts to the new units in question.

Do you believe the "Power Rankings" did not change when the D&D waves were introduced, or how about when the Capuans were introduced to help out Spartacus? As new units are introduced, the metagame changes...so of course if you include SoV/C3V units into your games, the metagame will change...it is inevitable.

I am not saying you have to include SoV/C3V (although, I for one would like to see what Legacy can do with them)...but if you do...you cannot take the stand, that SoV/C3V should not influence rankings of other units...especially since some SoV/C3V units were designed to help out less used Heroscape Original Units.

Good luck to you guys, as I see how Legacy can help make a new interesting metagame and would be a great addition as a play-style.

-ZB

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  #17  
Old October 28th, 2012, 08:26 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

I actually think most of the C3V and SoV pricing is very conservative, and that's not an insult at all. Power Creep is especially off-putting for people looking at customs, and the original designers often erred on the side of caution with points.

Therefore, at least initially, I doubt Legacy will have to alter many of the prices if people mix customs and Legacy. The only unit that currently sees a big boost under Legacy is Zettian Infantry, due to the huge drop in Deathwalker prices. But the ZI can afford to go a season as dominate before nerfing.

The Havech might need a boost in price, since the Horned Skull Brutes are 80 under Legacy. At 90 points, the Eradicators are pretty powerful, and I would could see bumping them to 95.
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  #18  
Old October 29th, 2012, 07:03 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Maybe, it is a thought, and I think I'll keep it in the Legacy Committee, at the very least.

Well met!

I like this:

Legacy is a pretty good name, in my opinion. One of the definitions is, in fact, inheriting or receiving from an ancestor or predecessor, by virtue of carrying on the duties of the will.

Moving on to:

demonstrate, in practice, that this can be a successful format . . .

So, what do you think, if we made some sort of Legacy brochure that TDs could hand out, which would list the figures seeing price changes, and some expected army shake ups, and maybe list resources on the web (assuming we get some resources made)? . . . In addition to getting some Legacy events run, and some playtests in . . . ?

Sounds like the beginning of a plan. But who is "we" at this point? Who's on the Committee, and how are/will decisions be made?

As I said, I applaud and support your willingness to pick up where Cornpuff left off, but your view of the tournament scene is a bit skewed.


Has anyone else been watching the threads for tournaments coming up and the phrase "build a fun army". A fun army in a tourney isn't fun when you are getting munched game after game.

I build what I consider to be "fun" armies, without getting "munched game after game." I have attended a few tournaments, and Dad has the right of it as to the ambience. For whatever reasons, there were no Tier 1 armies fielded in the tournaments I attended. I suspect that many of us who are sophisticated (and/or well read) enough to understand what constitutes such an army are also rebellious/egotistical enough to want to create/compete/win with armies uniquely our own. And, done intelligently, very competitive, and fun at the same time, armies can be built this way. I have attended 2 tournaments (and one competitive series). I took second place in the series, and went 4-1 in both tournaments, having a blast in all of these events (and, if I had played better, I could have won all three). Disparaging the tournament scene is counter-productive.

If we are going to garner support for Legacy, we're going to have to take a different, more positive, approach.




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Last edited by kolakoski; October 29th, 2012 at 10:57 PM.
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  #19  
Old October 29th, 2012, 09:05 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Well met!

For future reference, from 2011:

If I have any quibble with this system, it would be the pricing of Bonding Champions and Warlords, particularly for Orcs and Romans. Yes, their prices needed to be adjusted relative to each other. But I'd rather see the relative prices of Bonding squads be made higher, while their corrosponding heroes' prices be made lower. That way, the reasonable assumption that Bonding squads are more powerful because of, and will rarely, if ever, be played without, Champions or Warlords, is reflected in their price(s), while the choices of viable combinations of Champions and Warlords would be greater, and said Champions and Warlords could be more viable in their own right, i.e., played on their own, without the necessity of Bonding to make them viable.

I included some of this early discussion in the Call thread, but anyone entering into this discussion should [re]read this whole thread first. Let's hope you haven't bitten off more than you can chew!

By the way, did you read
An Evolutionary or Static Point System for Heroscape?



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Last edited by kolakoski; October 29th, 2012 at 09:17 PM.
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  #20  
Old October 29th, 2012, 11:49 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

I feel like the bonding should effect units despite if they are on the giving or receiving end of it. Good bonding has both sides go up, while bad bonding drops the hero or primary unit price first, and then the squad or secondary unit.

Depending on the circumstances, one of nine things can happen:
1-Both bonding and bonded go up. (B^b^)
2-Bonding goes up, bonded stays the same. (B^b-)
3-Both stay the same. (B-b-)
4-Bonding stays the same, bonded goes up. (B-b^)
5-Both drop in price. (Bvbv)
6-Bonding drops, bonded stays the same. (Bvb-)
7-Bonding stays the same, bonded drops. (B-bv)
8-Bonding drops, bonded goes up. (Bvb^)
9-Bonding goes up, bonded drops. (B^bv)

The bonded unit shouldn't go up more in a season than the bonding unit, but it is for the better of the system. Generally, a stronger unit will go up, not just because of bonding, but because of their own skill and ability.

And yes, I did read the thread many times before deciding to start this up again, as well as your post.

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  #21  
Old October 31st, 2012, 10:28 AM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Legacy sounds like a great idea. I love the thought of some little used figures coming out to play.
I'll probably try to organize some Legacy tournaments in the next couple of months.
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  #22  
Old October 31st, 2012, 10:37 AM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

Gents, are we sure we want to keep the name "Legacy"? I know it's seen some fun discussion over in the other thread. But it seems more appropriate to discuss it here. And it seems equally important to come to some consensus early rather than later. IF we want to change it, we should do it while the window for a fresh start is still open.

I know some are fiercely devoted to keeping the old name, whether because of loyalty, or because they feel it has too much inertia at this point to change.

Others argue for switching, in favor of a name that would better describe what the system does, be less misleading, and/or sound sexier.

As you gents might guess from my framing of the question, I do support changing the name. But I don't have any good suggestions for alternatives.

So here's hoping that we who are interested in exploring what this system has to offer and publicizing it to a wider 'Scape audience can indulge in a little enjoyable preliminary discussion of what the heck to call it.
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  #23  
Old October 31st, 2012, 11:07 AM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

I would support a name change, or at least an addition. We wouldn't have to get rid of Legacy, just add another word on to it

Even regarding the jokes around Flux, I do kinda like that name. And Typhon's suggestion of The Price is Right, I still find hilarious.

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  #24  
Old October 31st, 2012, 12:02 PM
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Re: The Legacy Committee

How much inertia does a system that has only been used for, I think, one tournament ever really have?

Pick a simple name that is immediately understandable. This isn't rocket science.

TLAs are a good place to start. Dynamic/Modified/Flux Pricing/Costing Mod/System? DPS? MCS? FPM?

EDIT: Or just Heroscape at the end, so Modified Price Heroscape, Flux Cost Heroscape, etc.

Last edited by dok; October 31st, 2012 at 12:29 PM.
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