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  #157  
Old October 11th, 2019, 09:46 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

AYP’s wording seems okay, but I don’t have an editor’s eye.
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  #158  
Old October 15th, 2019, 10:26 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, you may use Gravity Pull. Each player must place all non-adjacent figures they control within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul on any space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. Figures moved with Gravity Pull will not take leaving engagement attacks. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must attack with Gravity Crush Special Attack this turn.

Marginally simpler, though I'm not sure the second wording is workable. If multiple players control figures within 2 spaces of Ozuul, do we need to specify in which order those players chose to place their figures? Can we simplify it further by specifying that only opponent's figures are affected and removing the must use gravity crush requirement?
That wording seems fine to me (and I greatly prefer it to the "within 1 space" wording).

My general rule for choosing the order of this sort of power has always been that the controlling player gets to choose what order the figures are affected (unless it's Mimring, because Fire Line is weird), which generally avoids problems.

That certainly works well for powers such as Explosions and whatnot, though choosing players instead of figures does muddy the waters a little bit. I don't think that it's unreasonable to say that the same can apply, though if we need to change it to choosing figures instead of players, it's still relatively simple:

Quote:
GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, you may use Gravity Pull. Each non-adjacent small or medium figure within 2 spaces of Ozuul must be placed on an empty space adjacent to him by the player that controls that figure. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use his Gravity Crush Special Attack and may not attack normally this turn.
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  #159  
Old October 17th, 2019, 05:21 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

I think that’s about as simple as we’re gonna get it.
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  #160  
Old October 17th, 2019, 12:43 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, you may use Gravity Pull. Each player must place all non-adjacent figures they control within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul on any space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. Figures moved with Gravity Pull will not take leaving engagement attacks. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must attack with Gravity Crush Special Attack this turn.

Marginally simpler, though I'm not sure the second wording is workable. If multiple players control figures within 2 spaces of Ozuul, do we need to specify in which order those players chose to place their figures? Can we simplify it further by specifying that only opponent's figures are affected and removing the must use gravity crush requirement?
That wording seems fine to me (and I greatly prefer it to the "within 1 space" wording).

My general rule for choosing the order of this sort of power has always been that the controlling player gets to choose what order the figures are affected (unless it's Mimring, because Fire Line is weird), which generally avoids problems.

That certainly works well for powers such as Explosions and whatnot, though choosing players instead of figures does muddy the waters a little bit. I don't think that it's unreasonable to say that the same can apply, though if we need to change it to choosing figures instead of players, it's still relatively simple:

Quote:
GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, you may use Gravity Pull. Each non-adjacent small or medium figure within 2 spaces of Ozuul must be placed on an empty space adjacent to him by the player that controls that figure. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use his Gravity Crush Special Attack and may not attack normally this turn.
Who chooses the order they are placed?
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  #161  
Old October 17th, 2019, 02:09 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

For my "each non-adjacent figure must be placed by the player that controls that figure" wording, I think that it would be decided by the player controlling Ozuul. It seems logical to me to follow the precedent set by Deathwalker 9000 and other powers that affect multiple figures.

For the "each player must place all non-adjacent figures" wording, I'm not quite sure. No precedent to rely on comes to mind there. I'd like for the Ozuul player to get to choose the order of the players still, though. Either way, we'll probably want an R&C like for Deathwalker 9000 to make sure that it's clear.
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  #162  
Old October 17th, 2019, 02:18 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
For the "each player must place all non-adjacent figures" wording, I'm not quite sure. No precedent to rely on comes to mind there. I'd like for the Ozuul player to get to choose the order of the players still, though. Either way, we'll probably want an R&C like for Deathwalker 9000 to make sure that it's clear.
I don't think we can simply R&C this one. The order that figures are placed is pretty crucial, not something we should bury in an R&C.
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  #163  
Old October 17th, 2019, 02:59 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
For the "each player must place all non-adjacent figures" wording, I'm not quite sure. No precedent to rely on comes to mind there. I'd like for the Ozuul player to get to choose the order of the players still, though. Either way, we'll probably want an R&C like for Deathwalker 9000 to make sure that it's clear.
I don't think we can simply R&C this one. The order that figures are placed is pretty crucial, not something we should bury in an R&C.
I do prefer the other option because it isn't really breaking new ground. It does run into the Deathwalker 9000 problem of not clearly specifying the order, but I've always thought that was an intuitive ruling.

I don't mean that we can rely on a R&C here; I just mean that I'd like a R&C for this, regardless of what we decide on, to make sure that everything is crystal clear.
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  #164  
Old October 17th, 2019, 03:04 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I do prefer the other option because it isn't really breaking new ground. It does run into the Deathwalker 9000 problem of not clearly specifying the order, but I've always thought that was an intuitive ruling.
I've never thought it was intuitive, and this is not only different but worse. The rulebook only talks about this ordering in the context of an attack, not a special power like this. Additionally, that doesn't usually matter (for example, when hitting a near-death Raelin along with others). For Gravity Pull it really matters. Who gets the high ground spot? Who is forced to the low position? It will matter often.

Is this power intended to be a sort of super-Carry? Because it is.
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  #165  
Old October 17th, 2019, 03:27 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I've never thought it was intuitive, and this is not only different but worse. The rulebook only talks about this ordering in the context of an attack, not a special power like this. Additionally, that doesn't usually matter (for example, when hitting a near-death Raelin along with others). For Gravity Pull it really matters. Who gets the high ground spot? Who is forced to the low position? It will matter often.
I always played Deathwalker 9000 that way even before finding Heroscapers and the official ruling.

I do agree with you that this will matter more often. If I'm alone in thinking that it's the intuitive way to play these kinds of powers, then we can iron out some wording to clearly state the order.

If we wanted to go with AYP's wording, here's a quick draft:

Quote:
GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, Ozuul may use Gravity Pull. One at a time, choose a player with at least one figure within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul. That player must place all non-adjacent figures that they control within 2 clear sight spaces on any empty space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use Gravity Crush Special Attack and cannot attack normally this turn.
This does let each player choose the order that they place their own figures in.

For choosing figures instead of players:

Quote:
GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, Ozuul may use Gravity Pull. One at a time, choose a non-adjacent figure within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul. The player that controls that figure must place it on any empty space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. Continue choosing figures until there are no non-adjacent figures within 2 clear sight spaces or there are no empty spaces adjacent to Ozuul. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use his Gravity Crush Special Attack and may not attack normally this turn.
I'm not particularly fond of either wording, to be honest, though I hope that they adequately address the order problem with relatively little additional text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Is this power intended to be a sort of super-Carry? Because it is.
It does have the potential to carry your teammates, though it requires you to attack them immediately afterwards. The idea of limiting it to opposing figures and dropping the requirement to use Gravity Crush Special Attack afterward was tossed around recently, though I don't find such selective gravity to be thematic.
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  #166  
Old October 17th, 2019, 03:41 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I've never thought it was intuitive, and this is not only different but worse. The rulebook only talks about this ordering in the context of an attack, not a special power like this. Additionally, that doesn't usually matter (for example, when hitting a near-death Raelin along with others). For Gravity Pull it really matters. Who gets the high ground spot? Who is forced to the low position? It will matter often.
I always played Deathwalker 9000 that way even before finding Heroscapers and the official ruling.

I do agree with you that this will matter more often. If I'm alone in thinking that it's the intuitive way to play these kinds of powers, then we can iron out some wording to clearly state the order.

If we wanted to go with AYP's wording, here's a quick draft:

Quote:
GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, Ozuul may use Gravity Pull. One at a time, choose a player with at least one figure within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul. That player must place all non-adjacent figures that they control within 2 clear sight spaces on any empty space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use Gravity Crush Special Attack and cannot attack normally this turn.
This does let each player choose the order that they place their own figures in.

For choosing figures instead of players:

Quote:
GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, Ozuul may use Gravity Pull. One at a time, choose a non-adjacent figure within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul. The player that controls that figure must place it on any empty space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. Continue choosing figures until there are no non-adjacent figures within 2 clear sight spaces or there are no empty spaces adjacent to Ozuul. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use his Gravity Crush Special Attack and may not attack normally this turn.
I'm not particularly fond of either wording, to be honest, though I hope that they adequately address the order problem with relatively little additional text.
Either way is good. It also needs leaving engagement wording (either way).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Is this power intended to be a sort of super-Carry? Because it is.
It does have the potential to carry your teammates, though it requires you to attack them immediately afterwards. The idea of limiting it to opposing figures and dropping the requirement to use Gravity Crush Special Attack afterward was tossed around recently, though I don't find such selective gravity to be thematic.
Depends on how much you are concerned about damaging your own figures. In the middle of a fight, this will be a safe and potentially potent repositioning of your own figures.
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  #167  
Old October 17th, 2019, 04:50 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Personally, I don’t mind this being an ability that allows for some repositioning if you’re willing to take the risk. That’s an interesting tactical choice that doesn’t require us to further complicate the power in any way. Gives sort of a “simple at a glance, but with some hidden depths and tricks” feel to the power’s tactical use.
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  #168  
Old October 19th, 2019, 03:42 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Ozuul (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Editing

Definitely always preferred only moving your own figures if there was a risk. This wording seems good to me:

GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, Ozuul may use Gravity Pull. One at a time, choose a non-adjacent figure within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul. The player that controls that figure must place it on any empty space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. Continue choosing figures until there are no non-adjacent figures within 2 clear sight spaces or there are no empty spaces adjacent to Ozuul. Figures moved with Gravity Pull do not take leaving engagement attacks. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use his Gravity Crush Special Attack and may not attack normally this turn.

317-149
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