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C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #889  
Old January 9th, 2015, 06:37 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

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Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
However, iirc, in the case of Wrecker, he cannot be engaged when using the ability ... I can't think of a situation where he could be affected (maybe I'm remembering wrong or not thinking this through properly...high probability). But now I'll probably go back and obsessively read the card to make sure I'm remembering correctly. :rolls eyes:
You are remembering correctly I forgot that part myself. Not needed there either.
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  #890  
Old January 9th, 2015, 06:41 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

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Originally Posted by A3n View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
However, iirc, in the case of Wrecker, he cannot be engaged when using the ability ... I can't think of a situation where he could be affected (maybe I'm remembering wrong or not thinking this through properly...high probability). But now I'll probably go back and obsessively read the card to make sure I'm remembering correctly. :rolls eyes:
You are remembering correctly I forgot that part myself. Not needed there either.
Thanks! I've been reading the card for the last five minutes and about to start drawing little diagrams to figure it out.

EDIT: Arkham here I come!
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  #891  
Old January 9th, 2015, 06:42 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

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Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Would you mind putting all of these in one thread so we can easily go through them and make updates?
Happy to. Would you like me to start some kind of "Just_a_Bill's suggested edits" thread, then, and just keep dumping all my notes into that, instead of cluttering up each Book?

And if so, also go gather up the other notes I've already spread around to other Books?

Whatever is easiest for you all.
Yes, please (to all of that)!

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  #892  
Old January 9th, 2015, 06:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

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Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by A3n View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
However, iirc, in the case of Wrecker, he cannot be engaged when using the ability ... I can't think of a situation where he could be affected (maybe I'm remembering wrong or not thinking this through properly...high probability). But now I'll probably go back and obsessively read the card to make sure I'm remembering correctly. :rolls eyes:
You are remembering correctly I forgot that part myself. Not needed there either.
Thanks! I've been reading the card for the last five minutes and about to start drawing little diagrams to figure it out.

EDIT: Arkham here I come!

I commented in the Wrecker thread about this. Correct, he can't use it if he is engaged, but "technically", he could use it on a friendly figure that he was adjacent to, and thus himself be affected as well. I mean sure it would put him and his teammate at risk of demo damage, but it would allow them to be placed up to 2 spaces away, and since it doesn't have a height restriction, they could be placed on great height by using this in a cheesy fashion. This use wasn't the intent at all and really meant to bring enemy figures on height down to Wrecker's level, or even if they are at the same level, to bounce them somewhere else and maybe a demo wound.

So the change that I would have for Wrecker is to have him choose an opponent's figure up to 2 spaces away. This way he couldn't be affected because he couldn't be engaged to an opponent's figure that could be chosen, and he wouldn't be able to chose an adjacent friendly figure that would allow him to be affected.

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  #893  
Old January 9th, 2015, 06:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahma View Post
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Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
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Originally Posted by A3n View Post
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Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
However, iirc, in the case of Wrecker, he cannot be engaged when using the ability ... I can't think of a situation where he could be affected (maybe I'm remembering wrong or not thinking this through properly...high probability). But now I'll probably go back and obsessively read the card to make sure I'm remembering correctly. :rolls eyes:
You are remembering correctly I forgot that part myself. Not needed there either.
Thanks! I've been reading the card for the last five minutes and about to start drawing little diagrams to figure it out.

EDIT: Arkham here I come!

I commented in the Wrecker thread about this. Correct, he can't use it if he is engaged, but "technically", he could use it on a friendly figure that he was adjacent to, and thus himself be affected as well. I mean sure it would put him and his teammate at risk of demo damage, but it would allow them to be placed up to 2 spaces away, and since it doesn't have a height restriction, they could be placed on great height by using this in a cheesy fashion. This use wasn't the intent at all and really meant to bring enemy figures on height down to Wrecker's level, or even if they are at the same level, to bounce them somewhere else and maybe a demo wound.

So the change that I would have for Wrecker is to have him choose an opponent's figure up to 2 spaces away. This way he couldn't be affected because he couldn't be engaged to an opponent's figure that could be chosen, and he wouldn't be able to chose an adjacent friendly figure that would allow him to be affected.
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  #894  
Old January 9th, 2015, 09:06 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
But according to the rule, all figures that could potentially affect themselves are supposed to have a statement as to whether their particular design does or does not allow it. Why would this figure be an exception?
I think the confusion is that, at least based on what I was saying, the power doesn't always need to specify either way. Only when it breaks the general rule. Otherwise, it is assumed that the general rule applies.
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  #895  
Old January 9th, 2015, 09:50 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

Quote:
Originally Posted by A3n View Post
wording to say that your figure is also affected is not required that's implied if you are silly enough to target your own figure.
Silly is in the eye of the beholder. Just because we can’t think of a good reason right now for a player to do a particular thing isn’t a very compelling reason to deliberately make game text inconsistent with all the other units that work in a similar way.

But it’s not that difficult to imagine a scenario where a player would want to do this. Suppose Comedian is represented by Drake below (I’ve certainly found myself hemmed in like this plenty of times) and wants to flame all three enemies. Sure, he’s risking damage to himself, but depending upon the game state it’s probably worth it.



Seems like a valid, non-silly scenario to me. So why not have the game text say what the intent is, have it be consistent with other units, and follow the rule that has apparently been developed for just this kind of situation?

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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Yes, please (to all of that)!
Will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahma View Post
Wrecker ... could use it on a friendly figure that he was adjacent to, and thus himself be affected as well.
Exactly. (I didn’t choose these examples capriciously.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahma View Post
So the change that I would have for Wrecker is to have him choose an opponent's figure up to 2 spaces away. This way he couldn't be affected because he couldn't be engaged to an opponent's figure that could be chosen, and he wouldn't be able to chose an adjacent friendly figure that would allow him to be affected.
That works, too. One way or the other, the card should answer the question. (I would expect that to be a core design principle.)


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Last edited by Just_a_Bill; November 22nd, 2018 at 09:48 AM. Reason: fixing obsolete image link
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  #896  
Old January 9th, 2015, 09:52 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyOwl View Post
I think the confusion is that, at least based on what I was saying, the power doesn't always need to specify either way. Only when it breaks the general rule. Otherwise, it is assumed that the general rule applies.
Actually, you wrote this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyOwl
Adjacency to a Targeted Figure - a figure itself *can* be adjacent to the targeted figure, so powers that affect figures adjacent to the targeted figure *do* need to specify whether the figure itself is affected or not.

Within X Spaces of a Targeted Figure - a figure itself *can* be "within X spaces of a targeted figure", so powers that affect figures within X spaces of the targeted figure *do* need to specify whether the figure itself is affected or not.
Extending this to the other cases you didn't include in your original message (which I did in my reply, in abbreviated form) results in this:
In a Straight Line from a Targeted Figure - a figure itself *can* be "in a straight line from" the targeted figure, so powers that affect figures in a straight line from the targeted figure *do* need to specify whether the figure itself is affected or not.
Comedian is, of course, in that situation.

The only way I can see to make Comedian an exception is if you want to create yet another category of effects that is parallel to the ones you already listed but for some reason has a different rule. I'm not sure what the purpose for that would be, other than to have an excuse to make the texts inconsistent?

Honestly I don't understand the resistance to just following the rule that was (apparently) already created. It's not my rule; heck, I didn't even know about it until today! I'm just saying that since a convention does exist, it should be followed.


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  #897  
Old January 9th, 2015, 10:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

Yeah, you're right. I should've written that to say it only needs to specify if it violates the general rule. While I don't think it would necessarily hurt to be explicit all the times, card space for powers is usually at a premium.
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  #898  
Old January 9th, 2015, 10:31 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

Yeah, Idt Greyowl was trying to state an official rule or C3G standard. I think he was just trying to help clarify.

In regard to Comedian, as it stands right now, I'd let him flame his enemies and himself as there is nothing on the card to state otherwise. To add a line on the card stating that Comedian is affected by his flamethrower attack seems redundant, imo.

Imo, Storm is another matter. Whether or not a change is needed is dependent upon what the intent is. Thematically, it wouldn't bother me either way. As it stands now, I'd allow Storm to be affected ... plus, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Griffin purposely designed the power to be able to do precisely that.

Last edited by Hellfire; January 9th, 2015 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Disjointed Edit; Archaic irrelevancy.
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  #899  
Old January 9th, 2015, 10:39 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

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Originally Posted by GreyOwl View Post
Yeah, you're right. I should've written that to say it only needs to specify if it violates the general rule.
So then, the general rule is that since a unit's power can potentially affect that unit as long as it is not trying to be adjacent to, within X LOS/clear sight/normal spaces of, or in a straight line with itself, this is considered the default. Thus, when the design intent is to allow it, no statement is required.

A3n, I think now this must be why you have been saying "no change" on Comedian. You're saying that yes, he can continue to be allowed to flame himself, and as this is the default his text is already complete. Seems fine to me.

The reason why we had been on such different pages is that I was working from the understanding that it HAD to be specified either way, based on what others had suggested/agreed with earlier. I was not arguing that Comedian should be exempt; I just thought he needed an explicit statement one way or the other since he fit the template.

So, long story short, I think this is all converging now. We just had a misunderstanding about the nature of default behavior.


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  #900  
Old January 9th, 2015, 10:39 PM
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Re: The Book of Thor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by A3n View Post
wording to say that your figure is also affected is not required that's implied if you are silly enough to target your own figure.
Silly is in the eye of the beholder. Just because we canít think of a good reason right now for a player to do a particular thing isnít a very compelling reason to deliberately make game text inconsistent with all the other units that work in a similar way.

But itís not that difficult to imagine a scenario where a player would want to do this. Suppose Comedian is represented by Drake below (Iíve certainly found myself hemmed in like this plenty of times) and wants to flame all three enemies. Sure, heís risking damage to himself, but depending upon the game state itís probably worth it.



Seems like a valid, non-silly scenario to me. So why not have the game text say what the intent is, have it be consistent with other units, and follow the rule that has apparently been developed for just this kind of situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Yes, please (to all of that)!
Will do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahma View Post
Wrecker ... could use it on a friendly figure that he was adjacent to, and thus himself be affected as well.
Exactly. (I didnít choose these examples capriciously.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahma View Post
So the change that I would have for Wrecker is to have him choose an opponent's figure up to 2 spaces away. This way he couldn't be affected because he couldn't be engaged to an opponent's figure that could be chosen, and he wouldn't be able to chose an adjacent friendly figure that would allow him to be affected.
That works, too. One way or the other, the card should answer the question. (I would expect that to be a core design principle.)
Comedian's Flamethrower power was based off of Heatwave's power. But it was all fine with Heatwave because he is Lava Resistant and is safe from the flames based on the line saying Lava Resistant figure's aren't affected by the Flamethrower. So that works in that case without an issue. Were this brought up in Comedian's thread with the example you gave JaB, I would suggest a ruling that he would be affected by the Flamethrower. There's nothing that says he isn't and this isn't a case of him being within clear sight of himself or within X spaces of himself. This is a straight line from the targeted figure thing, so it should work backward toward and through him.

I think with all of these examples being thrown out in this thread, it becomes difficult to keep certain things straight and thus perhaps there are some inconsistent answers.

Regarding Wrecker: Not a mind reader as to why he was mentioned. So it was eventually figured out.

As to core design principles and whatnot. Keep in mind that those of us that have worked 100's or 1,000's of hours on this project since it's inception, are not professional designers and working full time at it. We've worked late into the night or early in the morning before work to do this. We also didn't do like 6 designs a year where we can spend billions of hours looking at it from every which way but loose. If we've been guilty of anything, it's been that we are too close to the design and know the intent and perhaps don't see it in another light. The designs are done collectively and so while we can catch things here and there with different sets of eyes, some things may be missed. There are also things like theme, bonding, power level, appropriate costs and testing to consider. So if you count the number of designs in the Books of Index, there are quite a few. Many, if not most of them are more complex than Classic units are.

I realize that you are trying to help JaB and are coming up with some great suggestions and it's appreciated. But I just wanted to point out that we aren't/weren't perfect. We did our best and put a lot of our valuable time into this project. We didn't take it lightly, but are not perfect.

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