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Old July 3rd, 2021, 03:31 PM
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[AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

Welcome to the Maps and Scenarios subforum for Arena of the Valkyrie! If you aren't familiar with the project, then I encourage you to follow that link to learn more.

This forum is focused on discussing map and scenario ideas for release with the community-driven Master Set project. To that end, many of these maps will use some form of the included AotV terrain. That might be the cardboard mats as a base level, the cardboard ruins as Line of Sight blockers, or just the Pillars of Hár Destructible Object.

Currently, our intent is to feature a handful of scenarios with just the terrain from the three Arena of the Planeswalkers sets to make the project enjoyable as a standalone entrypoint to HeroScape. We would also like to design one scenario for each terrain expansion, so that players can easily expand and find new content while focusing on what interests them. To that end, our goal is something along these lines:
  1. Solely Arena of the Valkyrie Scenario 1
  2. Solely Arena of the Valkyrie Scenario 2
  3. Solely Arena of the Valkyrie Scenario 3
  4. Solely Arena of the Valkyrie Scenario 4
  5. Rise of the Valkyrie Scenario
  6. Swarm of the Marro Scenario
  7. Battle for the Underdark Scenario
  8. Road to the Forgotten Forest Scenario
  9. Fortress of the Archkyrie Scenario
  10. Thaelenk Tundra Scenario
  11. Volcarren Wasteland Scenario
  12. Ticalla Jungle Scenario
The exact number of scenarios per set is of course up for discussion. If the AotV scenarios aren't displaying a large amount of replayability, for instance, then we'd want to design a few more. I also don't think that there's anything wrong with designing more RotV + AotV scenarios blending the sets if we have fun ideas for them.

Also, I'd like to refrain from committing too heavily to certain scenario types at this stage in the process. We have a decent shape for 12 of the units so far (including some notable sculpts like big-bad Ozuul), but the others have not been assigned to a pod yet. To ensure that the units turn out as excellent as possible, I think that most of the AotV-only scenarios will need to be finalized closer to the end of the project.

Still, there is valuable discussion to be had in scenario design principles and general map design, especially for playtesting purposes. I would like to see us put out a few well-balanced maps so that players can feel more comfortable testing with just the core set of AotV on them, or to get a better idea of balancing on the Pillars of Hár. Some good 1v1 maps would be an asset to the project now, I think.

In any case, this thread should be a good introduction to the subforum and general point of discussion for now. I look forward to discussing the details with you all.
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Old July 3rd, 2021, 03:43 PM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

Beginning the discussion proper, how do we feel about the Pillars of Hár and Glyph Threads? Should they be moved to this subforum, or remain in the Custom Units section?

Another starting point for the discussion is how we should formalize scenarios for AotV. The unit creation process is well-defined and mapped out, with Pods starting as enough progress is made and enough public interest is shown. This does have the unfortunate side-effect of presenting a slow process, though, which can reduce engagement from the community. In that sense, I'm inclined to think that full pods are not necessary for each map.

Instead, I'll brainstorm a rough process:
  • We have a general brainstorming thread for map designs, similar to the Pre-Brainstorming Thread in the units subforum. Everyone is encouraged to freely post map ideas or discuss suggestions there.
  • When ideas gain enough support, one of the active Project Leads will sponsor the map and make a thread in this subforum for it. They and the user who suggested the map will fine-tune it and test it for balance.
  • Balance testing should include several different types of units: Flying, screens, range vs. melee, et cetera. Depending on the map type (if it is a competitive 1v1 map, then rats should be tested, for example), different tests might be necessary.
  • Once we feel that a map is ready, the sponsoring Project Lead can start a vote to formalize the map and add it to an index thread also in this forum. At that point, the map is officially considered a part of the AotV Project!
This is mostly just an example process to generate discussion, of course. I think that there are some areas where this could be improved, and it would need to be more formally laid out eventually to avoid ambiguity.
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Old July 3rd, 2021, 08:35 PM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

Sounds pretty good to me. AotV + RotV maps will have a lot of terrain if the boards are included. I know they don't work so well with large amounts of hexes, but I suppose that leaves room for creativity say only adding mixing the AotV hexes & pillars (&maybe walls if they work) in with RotV, or using the boards but doing a lot of vertical height so as not to make a 10'x10' monstrosity.

As far as voting to formalize maps, the outline of officially including one scenario of each combination will have to be kept in mind. So there very may well be several good maps for a given combination, and we may need another vote to decide which one to use (depending on whether or not they were already developed with a scenario in mind).


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Old July 3rd, 2021, 11:39 PM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

I have some reservations about the cardboard ruins on normal HeroScape terrain, but I admit that they're mostly just aesthetic ones. So long as the stands are balanced, it'll probably work. I don't have them at my apartment, so I won't be able to check and post pictures for comparison for a good while.

I agree that with some of the sets like RotV and maybe SotM, we should seriously consider dropping some of the AotV pieces of cardboard to focus on Pillars and (inverse?) glyphs. Having another big vertical scenario like Migol's Tomb would be pretty awesome, though...

To be honest, I'm fine with including more scenarios for each set if they are high-enough quality to pass our final process. I think that one scenario per other terrain set should be our minimum, though I could see dropping some of them like the Ticalla Jungle that are expensive for new players and comparatively change the AotV terrain less.
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Old July 10th, 2021, 12:42 PM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

I personally don't see the need to create maps/scenarios for every terrain expansion. New players will probably pick up a copy of RotV before any terrain expansions, and at that point they'll already have everything they need to build any of the MANY maps that require RotV+a single terrain expansion. I think I'd prefer to focus on the number of maps that can be made using just the terrain from the three AotP boxes. This would also more closely follow the precedent set by each of the other four master sets, none of which included maps or scenarios that required anything not found in the box already.

Furthermore, there's nothing stopping us from designing and releasing standalone maps or scenarios for use with the AotP terrain+a terrain expansion after we've released the official AotV master set proper. I just don't think there's a great need to include these maps in the master set itself.

The other thing we need to consider when designing the maps and scenarios is the overall story/lore behind the set. One of the things I loved about the official master set scenarios and maps was the way they each tied in to the larger story of the set, which made each set feel more cohesive and helped to thematically define each figure in the set.
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Old July 10th, 2021, 02:03 PM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

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Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
I personally don't see the need to create maps/scenarios for every terrain expansion. New players will probably pick up a copy of RotV before any terrain expansions, and at that point they'll already have everything they need to build any of the MANY maps that require RotV+a single terrain expansion. I think I'd prefer to focus on the number of maps that can be made using just the terrain from the three AotP boxes. This would also more closely follow the precedent set by each of the other four master sets, none of which included maps or scenarios that required anything not found in the box already.

Furthermore, there's nothing stopping us from designing and releasing standalone maps or scenarios for use with the AotP terrain+a terrain expansion after we've released the official AotV master set proper. I just don't think there's a great need to include these maps in the master set itself.
Hmm. This is persuasive; I would like to still design a scenario for each terrain expansion (probably other than Ticalla Jungle) eventually, but I can see a strong argument for not packaging those into the initial scenario booklet.

I would like for players to feel like they can "start" with any set other than just RotV, as I feel like that's one of the key distinguishing factors for our box. To that end, if we are including some mixed terrain expansions in the initial release, I don't want all of them to focus on RotV. Some other options like Volcarren Wasteland are easy enough to replicate without spending a ton of money, and they would go a long way towards revealing the scope of the world here.

Quote:
The other thing we need to consider when designing the maps and scenarios is the overall story/lore behind the set. One of the things I loved about the official master set scenarios and maps was the way they each tied in to the larger story of the set, which made each set feel more cohesive and helped to thematically define each figure in the set.
We do have the beginnings of a story thread here, but I agree that we should place a large emphasis on this since the Master Sets typically contained a decent amount of the story of the game. Ideally, I would like for the glyphs to be related to this story as well, which could be played on with some of the ideas for new glyph types in the Glyph of Movement thread.

The basic premise to me right now is that there is a wellspring (or some other mysterious signal) emerging in the Sea of Sand, leading the Valkyrie generals to send in forces to claim it. Along the way, they come across the mysterious Pillars of Hár and end up stumbling across some kind of an "inverted" dimension or a similar explanation for the Weird tiles. This dimension is where Ozuul and the space shrimp live, leading to a climactic battle to stop him from escaping into Valhalla.

I don't necessarily want to do a full Swarm of the Marro-style campaign of scenarios, though, especially since it would probably come at the cost of development for standalone experiences like in RotV, but that's the basic framework that I was imagining thus far. We could probably represent this decently well with some initial battle scenarios that can be played in any order, along with a battle to stop Ozuul's forces from escaping the weird dimension.
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Old July 11th, 2021, 11:28 AM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
I personally don't see the need to create maps/scenarios for every terrain expansion. New players will probably pick up a copy of RotV before any terrain expansions, and at that point they'll already have everything they need to build any of the MANY maps that require RotV+a single terrain expansion. I think I'd prefer to focus on the number of maps that can be made using just the terrain from the three AotP boxes. This would also more closely follow the precedent set by each of the other four master sets, none of which included maps or scenarios that required anything not found in the box already.

Furthermore, there's nothing stopping us from designing and releasing standalone maps or scenarios for use with the AotP terrain+a terrain expansion after we've released the official AotV master set proper. I just don't think there's a great need to include these maps in the master set itself.
Hmm. This is persuasive; I would like to still design a scenario for each terrain expansion (probably other than Ticalla Jungle) eventually, but I can see a strong argument for not packaging those into the initial scenario booklet.

I would like for players to feel like they can "start" with any set other than just RotV, as I feel like that's one of the key distinguishing factors for our box. To that end, if we are including some mixed terrain expansions in the initial release, I don't want all of them to focus on RotV. Some other options like Volcarren Wasteland are easy enough to replicate without spending a ton of money, and they would go a long way towards revealing the scope of the world here.

Quote:
The other thing we need to consider when designing the maps and scenarios is the overall story/lore behind the set. One of the things I loved about the official master set scenarios and maps was the way they each tied in to the larger story of the set, which made each set feel more cohesive and helped to thematically define each figure in the set.
We do have the beginnings of a story thread here, but I agree that we should place a large emphasis on this since the Master Sets typically contained a decent amount of the story of the game. Ideally, I would like for the glyphs to be related to this story as well, which could be played on with some of the ideas for new glyph types in the Glyph of Movement thread.

The basic premise to me right now is that there is a wellspring (or some other mysterious signal) emerging in the Sea of Sand, leading the Valkyrie generals to send in forces to claim it. Along the way, they come across the mysterious Pillars of Hár and end up stumbling across some kind of an "inverted" dimension or a similar explanation for the Weird tiles. This dimension is where Ozuul and the space shrimp live, leading to a climactic battle to stop him from escaping into Valhalla.

I don't necessarily want to do a full Swarm of the Marro-style campaign of scenarios, though, especially since it would probably come at the cost of development for standalone experiences like in RotV, but that's the basic framework that I was imagining thus far. We could probably represent this decently well with some initial battle scenarios that can be played in any order, along with a battle to stop Ozuul's forces from escaping the weird dimension.
Yeah, I definitely think that more standalone scenarios made for AotP+terrain expansions can only be a good thing, I just don't think its necessary as part of this master set.
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Old July 11th, 2021, 12:54 PM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

That's a fair stance. I would like to include at least a few scenarios mixing with other sets in the initial booklet to provide that little hook for getting players to look beyond just our box, but we certainly don't need to dedicate our initial efforts to designing a large breadth of scenarios that many players simply won't experience.

For those purposes, how about something like this:
  • 2 scenario maps combining RotV + AotV
  • 1 scenario map combining Sotm + AotV
  • 1 scenario map combining FotA + AotV
I think that 3 is a solid number of "expansion scenarios" to include, and either of the first two Master Sets are very solid purchases for new players anyway. The castle set can really transform the game and add more elements to the map as well, so that could open up scenario possibilities with only one more map needed.

The last set that stands out to me is lava since it is the most proxy-friendly terrain, but I might just be biased towards fiery deaths and accept that it's not immediately beneficial to newer players. I don't think that BftU brings enough to the game for us to encourage new players to immediately seek it out over cheaper opportunities.

Ideally we would then aim to hit 5-8 different compelling AotV scenarios. Having experimented with the available terrain myself a decent bit, I think that this goal would be much easier to hit if we include some interesting element to the glyphs to make the boards a bit more dynamic than typical HS battlefields.
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Old July 12th, 2021, 10:21 AM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

Have you guys thought about making smaller scenarios using one AotP expansion(with potentially some use of a single expansion). The price point for each expansion is like $30-$40, so that’s a pretty big purchase commitment to make a single map.
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Old July 15th, 2021, 09:30 PM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

I don't think all the scenarios will necessarily include all the cardboard terrain boards, especially depending on which other set's terrain it's paired with.


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Old August 3rd, 2021, 12:19 AM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro

Quote:
Originally Posted by S1R_ART0R1US View Post
Have you guys thought about making smaller scenarios using one AotP expansion(with potentially some use of a single expansion). The price point for each expansion is like $30-$40, so that’s a pretty big purchase commitment to make a single map.
Argh, thanks for bringing up the price-point issue. It's a good motivator to keep things moving here. With that in mind, making at least one scenario for the original AotP set and one for Shadows Over Innistrad seems like a good idea.

I like the idea of blending Thaelenk Tundra or another terrain set with just one of the two AotP "big boxes" to further expand on this, too. Making more compelling scenarios out of just one set of AotP terrain may prove challenging, especially since elevated terrain is at a premium and the cardboard ruins and Pillars of Hár are from different boxes.

Something else worth keeping in mind is that the AotP boxes did come with some scenarios of their own. I don't remember the one that I had played a few years ago being particularly great, but it might be worth playing a few games with our figures at those point totals to see if they're "compatible."
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Old September 8th, 2021, 12:52 AM
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Re: [AotV] General Map and Scenario Intro



We've been discussing this over in the Glyph of Movement Thread, but I think that this is a better spot to carry on the discussion given that it will deeply impact all of our scenarios in (I think) a great way.

As superfrog noted a long time ago, classic HeroScape had different colors for different types of glyphs, and a Master Set feels like a good space conceptually to introduce a new glyph type. This also provides a lot more value to existing players and makes the box conceptually fit the aesthetic of the game better. Still, one of our primary goals is to introduce newer players to the game, so any new rules would have to be simple and make for a relatively straightforward transition to "normal" Power Glyph play.

To that end, I think that we should avoid relying on movement-based or almost gimmick-y glyphs like Treasure Glyphs here. Instead, I think that we can make for some really dynamic boards while still using most of the Power Glyph DNA:

Quote:
INVERSE GLYPHS
Inverse Glyphs have an "active side" with their name and symbol and an "inactive side" with the Inverse Glyph symbol on their back. While an Inverse Glyph is active, it grants the powers for that glyph <outlined below>. While that Inverse Glyph is inactive, there are no special benefits for that space.

At the beginning of each round, flip every Inverse Glyph on the battlefield so that the opposite side is now face-up. Scenarios will tell you what side to place each Inverse Glyph on to begin the game, or you can start them on any side when designing your own battlefields.
These rules are effectively the same as Power Glyphs but with one twist. This would allow for us to make "hotspots" of the map alternate throughout a game, with certain spaces gaining or losing value dependent on the glyph we place there. Given how limited our scenario options are, I think that this added bit of dynamism and creativity would go a long way towards creating unique experiences. As an added bonus, it would also allow for some pretty cool community-made scenarios if they catch on.

If we do decide to go down this route, then I would want to send all of the Glyphs back to Design (or Public Feedback?) for a hot minute to ensure that we think through the ramifications. Most of the glyphs that are permanent are probably fine (in fact, Toughness and Power would probably be improved with an added time-element), but the Temporary Glyphs like Recall and Heal could use tweaks. Also, Recall might be too weak of a bonus to justify having to balance a time-element.

Any thoughts on the idea of Inverse Glyphs or some other new type?
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