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  #1189  
Old May 4th, 2018, 07:53 PM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

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Originally Posted by japes View Post
I always thought that if an issue could be addressed with a price change that was the best option. You stay with the original idea that the designers intended and just adjust it to be balanced within the universe. Breaking out of "cookie cutter" armies is a bonus not a hindrance. When I first joined I remember reading several game logs from tournaments and it always looked like the same armies. So to be competitive you had to also use counter armies for those which usually just meant a lot of similar armies. That's why other weaker units became obsolete. The didn't work against "cookie cutter" armies.
I will say the tournements of ye olden days seemed to be more about competitiveness than about trying new things lol. That might be because the game was still in production perhaps. Fortunately, new formats have helped with overall meta balance. Formats like Reverse the Whip, Bring 2, and 4x4 affected the meta more than Delta, C3V, and even Marvel imho.

But those cookie cutters are still more than valuable if your building armies for more than just yourself. And only scales with number of armies to be built.

And of course, even lower tier armies can still be easily built. Elf Wizards are pretty much a no brainer.

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  #1190  
Old May 7th, 2018, 08:41 AM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
While I dont think that any sort of revamping project like this would be very likely to make it into a tournament, I had a thought.
We've run several tournaments down here with CUC units. They have been well received and have largely gone through the event with little fan fare (no one made a big stink about them one way or the other). Not to say that I think everyone should allow them in all their events (even we don't do that), but they do offer options for people looking to dust off some old lesser used units.

The whole point of this was to create more competitive and interesting cards for some of the units we love. We tested them for tournament play, but we weren't really trying to invent a new system to be adopted by the community at large.

Quote:
Does changing the price of the unit make it less likely to appeal to a more competitive audience? If a project like this is to continue, would it be wise to not touch price point as a tuning dial?
To me, a simple point change isn't as interesting as what we are doing here (naturally, since this is the direction we went). The ability to adjust points and abilities gives the CUC much needed flexibility.

Take Hatamoto for example. His ability as written on the card is very terrible. While you could dial his points down to make him worth it, you would only end up with a very heavy counter unit that was really good against very specific armies and then useless against others. That's not nearly as interesting as the version we have here now (IMO).

There are several units in the CUC where this applies. I think adjusting abilities can help make some abilities more dependably useful and avoid making hard counter unit. That's a key to making a competitive tournament army.

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Competitive Unit Congress
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  #1191  
Old May 13th, 2018, 01:20 PM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

I just came across this post and I agree with all of these changes and thanks for the work put in. Most of these figures I could never imagine using but with these changes I will play them now. I look forward to the acolarth so I can finally use all my flag bearers without feeling like I am shoehorning them in.
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  #1192  
Old June 4th, 2018, 08:55 PM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

What metric is being used to judge whether a unit is "non-viable"? At first glance it appears that every unit on the non-viable list in the OP is rated C+ or lower on spider_poison and Jexik's power rankings with the exception of Ana Karithon, Kato Katsuro, and Ulginesh. If this is the case, which of the following units, if any, should be added to the list?

Spoiler Alert!


I'll also say that I don't think Ulginesh belongs on the non-viable list. The general consensus seems to be that the elf heroes team isn't the greatest, but that's less because of Ulginesh and more because of the relative unimpressiveness of his wizard buddies. When the wizards get better, Ulginesh will get better.
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  #1193  
Old June 4th, 2018, 09:48 PM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberQ9 View Post
What metric is being used to judge whether a unit is "non-viable"? At first glance it appears that every unit on the non-viable list in the OP is rated C+ or lower on spider_poison and Jexik's power rankings with the exception of Ana Karithon, Kato Katsuro, and Ulginesh. If this is the case, which of the following units, if any, should be added to the list?

Spoiler Alert!


I'll also say that I don't think Ulginesh belongs on the non-viable list. The general consensus seems to be that the elf heroes team isn't the greatest, but that's less because of Ulginesh and more because of the relative unimpressiveness of his wizard buddies. When the wizards get better, Ulginesh will get better.
From your list, the few that I see needing the most assistance would be:


Evar Scarcarver
Gurei-Oni
Master of the Hunt
Mika Connour
Obsidian Guards



Evar has a cool concept but doesn't really see play in our area. Maybe a bump to Move 6, Attack 3 would help. That makes him a double-attack in melee before he gets rage infused.

Gurei is just not as good as Torin for just 20 more points. Maybe drop him to 80 points or make him Wild or a Wild Giant) for Deathchasers/Dreadguls {someone has a modification like that on their thread but I forget who}

Master of the Hunt is too expensive. I'd drop him to 110 points. You could drop the Javelin power and add something like Precision - targets do not receive additional defense dice from special powers, glyphs, terrain, or height advantage.

Mika needs to not take leaving engagements on her Shadow Dance and maybe add a third shadow tile.

Obsidian Guards are over-priced. Drop to 75 points and lose Water Weakness. This makes them on par with the Hornskull Brutes (4/4). It makes them very competitive on lava boards though.
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  #1194  
Old June 5th, 2018, 10:25 AM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

In my Competitive Unit alters thread I have "fixes" for Evar Scarcarver (add extra move and move power), Gurei-oni (make Wild), Master of the Hunt (make 125 and improve Javelin odds) and Obsidian Guards (add 2 to range if next to another Obsidian or other Lava Resistant figure) but I just thought of a better way to make Obsidian Guards better by changing Lava Throw and adding one more power.

Change LAVA THROW to
"When an Obsidian Guard is on a molten lava space it may add 2 [4/5] to its range, or if an Obsidian Guard is on a lava field space it may add [2/3] to its range."
[not sure if should change lava throw to +4 or +5 for molten lava and +2 or +3 for lava field. It would need to be worth 100 for 3-man ranged 4/4 squad (only in the game)]

OBSIDIAN FIELD:
All land spaces adjacent to Obsidian Guards are considered lava field spaces [for special powers and end of the round rolls].

[text in brackets is optional for clarity]

This allows them to lava-throw when next to another obsidian guard, as well as wound adjacent non-LR opponents at the end of the round, while significantly reducing dependence on map. They still might be too expensive, but maybe not - would have to playtest.

Last edited by lefton4ya; June 6th, 2018 at 01:51 PM. Reason: changed wording to use "land spaces" - Arashara Goshiri set precident
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  #1195  
Old June 6th, 2018, 01:15 PM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberQ9 View Post
I'll also say that I don't think Ulginesh belongs on the non-viable list. The general consensus seems to be that the elf heroes team isn't the greatest, but that's less because of Ulginesh and more because of the relative unimpressiveness of his wizard buddies. When the wizards get better, Ulginesh will get better.
I agree. Ulginesh won't need any changes if the Elven Wizards are buffed (and honestly, with C3V's Haduc, I don't think many of them need to be changed, either). I think some minor buffs to Chardris to make him a viable option over Jorhdawn and to Emirroon to make him more useful are all that should be done for the Elves at this point. Morsbane and the rest don't really need any more help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo View Post
Gurei is just not as good as Torin for just 20 more points. Maybe drop him to 80 points or make him Wild or a Wild Giant) for Deathchasers/Dreadguls {someone has a modification like that on their thread but I forget who}
I'm not a big fan of this change, although it would be a pretty simple fix. Changing the personality feels like it's changing the theme of a unit to me, especially when it's a shift from something like Tormenting to Wild, which each have different connotations. Changing his species to a Giant is also a step too far in my opinion (although I would love for the Dreadguls to have more bonding options), since he's clearly different from the other Giants that we've seen so far.

Honestly, I'd love to see him get Evil Eye Protection like Torin has. It gives him a niche to fill of protecting Einar units (and acts as a good way to cover one of the major shortcomings of the Samurai, although with CUC's Hatamoto Taro it'd undoubtedly be too strong) while still somewhat lining up with his original vision.

Quote:
Master of the Hunt is too expensive. I'd drop him to 110 points. You could drop the Javelin power and add something like Precision - targets do not receive additional defense dice from special powers, glyphs, terrain, or height advantage.
I agree with a point drop, but I don't want to see Javelin completely dropped. Maybe changing the roll to occur before he moves (along with a price drop) would be enough to help him.

Quote:
Mika needs to not take leaving engagements on her Shadow Dance and maybe add a third shadow tile.
I like both of these suggestions. My only qualm is that I only have access to one BftU set, so I don't have three shadow tiles to spare for her.

As for some of the other units on @UberQ9 's list...

Elite Onyx Vipers
I think that it was the CUA version that upped their base defense to 4 and changed Evasive 8 to Evasive 6, but this change seems perfectly acceptable to me. Every time that I've seen these guys in action, they have no problem engaging their targets, but they fail to kill them in one turn and promptly die the next. A respectable 4 defense would go a long way towards helping them.

MacDirk Warriors
A bump to 3 defense is all these guys need, in my opinion. They should still be more killable than the Knights of Weston, but the extra defense die should give them the edge they need to be more reliable.

Otonashi
Honestly, I don't want her to be buffed. We already have Isamu in the game, and with a surge of 10-point fillers being worked on for SoV, I think that he'll have enough competition elsewhere. She's also useful in a Command Courier build, where she'll almost always get the movement boost when you activate her.

Granted, none of the above applies in a Classic-only format, so for everyone who plays without VC units, I can see why buffing her would be appealing.
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  #1196  
Old June 29th, 2018, 04:58 PM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

It's been about 5 years since I've logged on to this site. Glad to see the community is still alive and well. A desire to find custom "tweaked" versions of some of the official units that never get played led me to do a google search and it looks like I found exactly that.

I have a few questions:
Is there a way to view the playtest process for these cards (what abilities are being added, re-worked, etc.)? I don't necessarily want to add anything to the conversation, just want to see what's being worked on is all.

And I put a comment on the post hosting the PDF file with all of the CUC cards released so far, but not sure if anyone will see that so I'll ask again here: Is Parmenio meant to have 5 range? It doesn't seem like it, but his range is 5 on that PDF file.

Glad to be back!

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  #1197  
Old July 5th, 2018, 07:48 AM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

Quote:
Originally Posted by UtgarsWorstFear View Post
I have a few questions:
Is there a way to view the playtest process for these cards (what abilities are being added, re-worked, etc.)? I don't necessarily want to add anything to the conversation, just want to see what's being worked on is all.
It's a pretty unofficial process right now. We have a weekly meetup in Dallas where we bring these guys up and discuss ideas. Sometimes we test a few out and see what happens. If the idea seems to work, we'll add it to the que here and put it through a formal review. But that's about it.

Quote:
And I put a comment on the post hosting the PDF file with all of the CUC cards released so far, but not sure if anyone will see that so I'll ask again here: Is Parmenio meant to have 5 range? It doesn't seem like it, but his range is 5 on that PDF file.
Sorry for the confusion on that. The combined PDF file was put together by another member as a helpful way of printing them off. He didn't have the files we were using to make the changes, so there are a few typos here and there. The images and typed changes in the original post have the correct revisions. When in doubt, check the file that I have uploaded for each unit.

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Competitive Unit Congress
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  #1198  
Old July 8th, 2018, 12:55 PM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dignan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UtgarsWorstFear View Post
I have a few questions:
Is there a way to view the playtest process for these cards (what abilities are being added, re-worked, etc.)? I don't necessarily want to add anything to the conversation, just want to see what's being worked on is all.
It's a pretty unofficial process right now. We have a weekly meetup in Dallas where we bring these guys up and discuss ideas. Sometimes we test a few out and see what happens. If the idea seems to work, we'll add it to the que here and put it through a formal review. But that's about it.
I didn't know that you guys were still working on these. Don't be afraid to let me know if you ever need some more people for playtesting or anything, and I'll see if I can work something out.

Are you excluding C3V/SoV releases from the alterations still?
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  #1199  
Old July 9th, 2018, 07:58 AM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I didn't know that you guys were still working on these. Don't be afraid to let me know if you ever need some more people for playtesting or anything, and I'll see if I can work something out.

Are you excluding C3V/SoV releases from the alterations still?
Yeah, despite the apparent lack of progress, we do continue to work on these in our gaming. We've just gotten down to some of the less inspiring figures, so we haven't had the same impetus to complete their changes.

We aren't going out of our way to exclude C3V/SoV, we just aren't fully keeping up with everything over there. Really the intent is for this to fix figures without needing C3V/SoV, so we work somewhat in a vacuum.

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Competitive Unit Congress
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  #1200  
Old July 9th, 2018, 12:54 PM
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Re: Competitive Unit Congress

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dignan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I didn't know that you guys were still working on these. Don't be afraid to let me know if you ever need some more people for playtesting or anything, and I'll see if I can work something out.

Are you excluding C3V/SoV releases from the alterations still?
Yeah, despite the apparent lack of progress, we do continue to work on these in our gaming. We've just gotten down to some of the less inspiring figures, so we haven't had the same impetus to complete their changes.

We aren't going out of our way to exclude C3V/SoV, we just aren't fully keeping up with everything over there. Really the intent is for this to fix figures without needing C3V/SoV, so we work somewhat in a vacuum.
That's nice to know. If you ever get to the point that you feel like sharing some of your ideas, I'd definitely be interested in seeing them.

I thought that was the case, but I just wanted to check. Everyone brought up good points earlier that even when combining CUC and VC, it's not creating any real Major Q9 or Raelin-levels of power, so it's probably fine for the most part anyway.
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