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  #13  
Old June 29th, 2012, 01:27 AM
screwDriver screwDriver is offline
 
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

I'm curious with her Slippery 6, it plays differently than the "Vanishing/Disappearing" powers of Isamu and Ninjas of the Northern Winds. She can only use it once per turn and only against a squad figure. But I need some clarifications on a few things.

The first concerns on the sequence of how it is implemented. For that, consider this scenario...

- The way I play squadies is, move each piece to position, then, if possible, attack one-by-one. Or should it be move-attack with one figure then proceed to next figure?
- Let us assume that the first squad figure ends it's movement adjacent to Elaria, would the sequence be,

move1, slippery 6, move2, move3... attack1, attack2, attack3? or
move1, move2, move3, slippery 6... attack1, attack2, attack3?

Where the number after "move" represents each of unfriendly squadie figure. Due to the fact that Elaria can only use Slippery 6 once, the sequence of each movement can be vital for her survival.


The second concerns with dealing with movement or placement assisted or resulted by the use of special powers. Examples:

For the sake of simplicity, assume figures are squad figure and unfriendly to Elaria.
- Jotun throws a figure adjacent to Elaria.
- Figure Knockback adjacent to Elaria by Shurrak.
- A Marro Divider placed adjacent to Elaria via the Cell Divide power.
- Elaria is adjacent to a friendly figure "zombified" by Zomebie Rise Again.
- A Marro Warrior placed adjacent to Elaria via Water Clone.
- Figure placed adjacent to Elaria via Theracus Bomb.
- Rechet of Bogdan summoned adjacent to Elaria.
- Elven figure summoned adjacent to Elaria by Emiroon.
- Figure moved adjacent to Elaria by Drow Chainfighter's Chain Grab.
- Figure dropped adjacent to Elaria by Wyvern's Talon Grab.
- Wolves of Badru ends up adjacent to Elaria after a successful Pounce Special Attack. Technically, the wolf had already ended it's move before doing Pounce.

Last edited by screwDriver; June 29th, 2012 at 01:32 AM.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:34 AM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
- The way I play squadies is, move each piece to position, then, if possible, attack one-by-one.
That's not just the way you play, that's the way you have to play. Those are the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
Or should it be move-attack with one figure then proceed to next figure?
No, that would be against the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
- Let us assume that the first squad figure ends it's movement adjacent to Elaria, would the sequence be,

move1, slippery 6, move2, move3... attack1, attack2, attack3? or
move1, move2, move3, slippery 6... attack1, attack2, attack3?
The first one. Now, if the first squaddie ends up adjacent to her, she may choose to stay put, and then if the second squaddie ends up adjacent to her, she can try to Slippery away then. Ditto on the 3rd squaddie.

Basically, any time a squaddie sidles up next to her, she may attempt to Slip away (right then), unless she has already made an attempt to do so earlier that turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
Due to the fact that Elaria can only use Slippery 6 once, the sequence of each movement can be vital for her survival.
Indeed. Choose carefully, Elaria!

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
The second concerns with dealing with movement or placement assisted or resulted by the use of special powers.
Doesn't matter. Placing is the same as moving, as we just cleared up over in Arashara's Book of thread.

So ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
For the sake of simplicity, assume figures are squad figure and unfriendly to Elaria.
- Jotun throws a figure adjacent to Elaria.
- Figure Knockback adjacent to Elaria by Shurrak.
- A Marro Divider placed adjacent to Elaria via the Cell Divide power.
- Elaria is adjacent to a friendly figure "zombified" by Zomebie Rise Again.
- A Marro Warrior placed adjacent to Elaria via Water Clone.
- Figure placed adjacent to Elaria via Theracus Bomb.
- Rechet of Bogdan summoned adjacent to Elaria.
- Elven figure summoned adjacent to Elaria by Emiroon.
- Figure moved adjacent to Elaria by Drow Chainfighter's Chain Grab.
- Figure dropped adjacent to Elaria by Wyvern's Talon Grab.
- Wolves of Badru ends up adjacent to Elaria after a successful Pounce Special Attack. Technically, the wolf had already ended it's move before doing Pounce.
The question you really want answered is, which of those would trigger an Engagement Strike if we were talking about being next to a Nakita (or Arkmer, or the GIE). Whatever that answer is, the answer is the same for Elaria. Of those, Throw, Knockback, Carry, Evlen Summoning, Chain Grab, Talon Grab, and Pounce (plus Spear of Summoning and Glacier Traverse, to name the two that immediately spring to mind that you forgot) are definite yeses. The others, I confess that I'm not 100% sure on. Zombies Rise Again I'm pretty sure is a no: there's no movement involved, either thematically or mechanically (the power says "replace," which is neither "move" nor "place"). Which just leaves us with the cases where figures come from off the board: Cell Divide, Water Clone, and Summon Rechets (and the ones I can think of that you forgot from that group: the Drop, Summon Elemental, and Marro Rebirth). I'm pretty sure that since they all use the "place" wording, they're all yeses, mechanically, even though thematically that seems a bit weird.

(A quick search of the fora says that yes, they're all yeses. And, actually, concensus seems to be that even ZRA would be a yes. Even though the wording doesn't specifically use "place," it does refer to the zombified figure as a "newly placed zombie," so, hey, maybe I'm wrong there too. I'd love to hear an opinion on that from dalu or dok or any of my other C3V/SoV Rules Team compatriots.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
You should not read this blog.

Why I Left the C3V

Last edited by Xotli; June 29th, 2012 at 06:35 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #15  
Old June 29th, 2012, 06:46 AM
screwDriver screwDriver is offline
 
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Thank you for the wonderful explanation Xotli, am also glad that I am playing it the right way.

But, I believe Kurrok's Summon Elemental is a no-no. I admit I did forget about AE Drop and Marro Rebirth but I was aware that the Elementals are Common Heroes, so it was consciously not included in my list.

*It turns out AE Drop is also a no-no as they are not allowed to be drop adjacent to other figures... friendlies or foes.

*I'd also like to note that knowing that Elaria can choose when to use Slippery 6, an opponent can actually move his squad in such a way to surround Elaria and actually render this power unuseable.

*Zombie Rise Again, this is a bit of an off-topic but since it's here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
And, actually, concensus seems to be that even ZRA would be a yes. Even though the wording doesn't specifically use "place," it does refer to the zombified figure as a "newly placed zombie," so, hey, maybe I'm wrong there too. I'd love to hear an opinion on that from dalu or dok or any of my other C3V/SoV Rules Team compatriots.)
That is an interesting point and got me into thinking. Let's say that I have a few Zombies already adjacent to enemy figures and this allowed me to forego any movement and proceed right away to attacking. In short, my opponent does not know which Zombies would be attacking. Assuming that my first attack was successful and ZRA kicks in, does this mean that I can actually use the newly risen Zombie to do the 2nd (or 3rd) attack?

Cheers.


NOTE: Please disregard the last issue with the Zombies, read the card and got it.

Last edited by screwDriver; June 29th, 2012 at 09:50 AM. Reason: Edit: *Additional info on AE, strategy and ZRA.
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  #16  
Old June 29th, 2012, 10:50 AM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Also, for like in a HoB scenario, if a Deathchaser uses its pre-game move power to go next to Elaria, Slippery 6 would activate correct?
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Old June 29th, 2012, 03:34 PM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
But, I believe Kurrok's Summon Elemental is a no-no.
Well, true, they can't trigger Slippery. I went a little overboard there looking for movement powers that don't appear to be movement. They would trigger Engagement Strike, though, which is the analogy I was shooting for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
*It turns out AE Drop is also a no-no as they are not allowed to be drop adjacent to other figures... friendlies or foes.
Ah, yes, true, so they can't trigger Engagement Strike either. See, I told you I went a little overboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
*I'd also like to note that knowing that Elaria can choose when to use Slippery 6, an opponent can actually move his squad in such a way to surround Elaria and actually render this power unuseable.
Absolutely. A clever opponent can cut off Elaria's avenues of escape (not as hard as it sounds: remember, unlike Isamu, Elaria doesn't have Phantom Walk, so she can't move through figures), then move squaddie 1 next to Elaria. Now Elaria's player has a tough choice: use Slippery now and then get squaddie #2 next to her, or stay put and try to use Slippery when the next squaddie shows up. If she stays put, then the opponent has to work out whether it's better to put squaddie #2 next to her and accept the Slippery, or not put any further squaddies adjacent, thus denying Elaria the Slippery attempt, but only getting a single attack on her. Fun times all around!

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
*Zombie Rise Again, this is a bit of an off-topic but since it's here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
And, actually, concensus seems to be that even ZRA would be a yes. Even though the wording doesn't specifically use "place," it does refer to the zombified figure as a "newly placed zombie," so, hey, maybe I'm wrong there too. I'd love to hear an opinion on that from dalu or dok or any of my other C3V/SoV Rules Team compatriots.)
Assuming that my first attack was successful and ZRA kicks in, does this mean that I can actually use the newly risen Zombie to do the 2nd (or 3rd) attack?
No, because the power specifically says "Newly placed Zombies of Morindan cannot attack this turn."

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
NOTE: Please disregard the last issue with the Zombies, read the card and got it.
Ah, good. May as well leave the answer up there for the lurkers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex worker View Post
Also, for like in a HoB scenario, if a Deathchaser uses its pre-game move power to go next to Elaria, Slippery 6 would activate correct?
Yes. Weird though it seems, Elaria can actually (theoretically) move before the game ever starts. Of course, as a practical matter, a map where Orc Battle Rush can allow the Death Chasers to reach their opponent's startzone is going to be pretty unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
You should not read this blog.

Why I Left the C3V

Last edited by Xotli; June 30th, 2012 at 12:52 AM. Reason: fixed stupid mistake, thanks to capsocrates
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  #18  
Old June 29th, 2012, 03:42 PM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Of course, as a practical matter, a map where Orc Battle Rush can allow the Death Chasers to reach their opponent's startzone is going to be pretty unlikely.
Fixed.

I think he was referring to Heat-of-Battle scenarios.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #19  
Old June 29th, 2012, 04:09 PM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Of course, as a practical matter, a map where Orc Battle Rush can allow the Death Chasers to reach their opponent's startzone is going to be pretty unlikely.
Fixed.

I think he was referring to Heat-of-Battle scenarios.
Wait a mintue-but in that scenario, Elaria would be allowed as many Slippery moves as Deathchasers that moved adjacent to her, right? Or would she not be able to use it at all? It says "once per turn," but Orc Battle Rush does not happen within a turn. I think we need a ruling here-can she use Slippery, and if so, how many times?

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  #20  
Old June 29th, 2012, 09:49 PM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
The second concerns with dealing with movement or placement assisted or resulted by the use of special powers.
Doesn't matter. Placing is the same as moving, as we just cleared up over in Arashara's Book of thread.

So ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwDriver View Post
For the sake of simplicity, assume figures are squad figure and unfriendly to Elaria.
- Jotun throws a figure adjacent to Elaria.
- Figure Knockback adjacent to Elaria by Shurrak.
- A Marro Divider placed adjacent to Elaria via the Cell Divide power.
- Elaria is adjacent to a friendly figure "zombified" by Zombie Rise Again.
- A Marro Warrior placed adjacent to Elaria via Water Clone.
- Figure placed adjacent to Elaria via Theracus Bomb.
- Rechet of Bogdan summoned adjacent to Elaria.
- Elven figure summoned adjacent to Elaria by Emiroon.
- Figure moved adjacent to Elaria by Drow Chainfighter's Chain Grab.
- Figure dropped adjacent to Elaria by Wyvern's Talon Grab.
- Wolves of Badru ends up adjacent to Elaria after a successful Pounce Special Attack. Technically, the wolf had already ended it's move before doing Pounce.
...

(A quick search of the fora says that yes, they're all yeses. And, actually, concensus seems to be that even ZRA would be a yes. Even though the wording doesn't specifically use "place," it does refer to the zombified figure as a "newly placed zombie," so, hey, maybe I'm wrong there too. I'd love to hear an opinion on that from dalu or dok or any of my other C3V/SoV Rules Team compatriots.)
As I said in The Book of Arashara Goshiri
The general rule is:
Quote:
Any power that triggers when a figure is moved somewhere also triggers if the figure is placed or summoned at the same place, unless otherwise stated.
If you place a figure on a space, it has moved of course.

Just a second before, the figure wasn't here. Now the figure is here. The figure has moved, as simple as that.
If you are not convinced, you must agree that the figure has been placed here (it's a real true fact, because the figure is now here on that space), and "the designers have stated that moving and placing are synonymous basically."

No matter if a power was used or not, no matter the wording of this power, no matter where the figure was before: the figure has been placed, the figure has moved.
Nobody pretends that the figure has used a "normal move" (described in each rulebook), but the figure has actually physically moved, and you must apply the above general rule.

SLIPPERY 6 says "if an opponent’s squad figure ends its movement adjacent to Elaria the Pale..."
The word "ends" may disturb you.
It has been added to prevent a very improbable (but possible) corner case with peanuts based squaddies.
But, once again, the designers have stated that moving and placing are synonymous basically.
If you place a figure, you can consider that it has moved, and of course also that its movement has ended.

So YES screwDriver, Elaria may use SLIPPERY 6 in all those cases in your list.

Last edited by dalu; June 30th, 2012 at 04:05 AM.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex worker View Post
Also, for like in a HoB scenario, if a Deathchaser uses its pre-game move power to go next to Elaria, Slippery 6 would activate correct?
Yes. Weird though it seems, Elaria can actually (theoretically) move before the game ever starts. Of course, as a practical matter, a map where Barge into Battle can allow the Death Chasers to reach their opponent's startzone is going to be pretty unlikely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomeunleashed View Post
It says "once per turn," but Orc Battle Rush does not happen within a turn. I think we need a ruling here-can she use Slippery, and if so, how many times?
awesomeunleashed is right:
Orc Battle Rush does not happen within a turn.
Slippery 6 can only be used during a turn (up to once per turn).
Conclusion: Elaria can't use Slippery 6 in that case.
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  #22  
Old June 30th, 2012, 02:21 AM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Of course, as a practical matter, a map where Orc Battle Rush can allow the Death Chasers to reach their opponent's startzone is going to be pretty unlikely.
Fixed.
Thanx. I always get those mixed up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalu View Post
If you place a figure on a space, it has moved of course.

Just a second before, the figure wasn't here. Now the figure is here. The figure has moved, as simple as that.
If you are not convinced, you must agree that the figure has been placed here (it's a real true fact, because the figure is now here on that space), and "the designers have stated that moving and placing are synonymous basically."
I hear you. You have to admit that ZRA is a little different though: true, just a second before, the figure wasn't there .. but another figure was. Thematically, there's no movement at all. Of course, mechanically beats thematically, but the power isn't perfectly clear on that point either. It doesn't say to "place" the figure, but it does refer to the figure as "newly placed." So it's a little unusual.

But I bow to your superior logic, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalu View Post
awesomeunleashed is right:
Orc Battle Rush does not happen within a turn.
Slippery 6 can only be used during a turn (up to once per turn).
Conclusion: Elaria can't use Slippery 6 in that case.
Hmmmmm ... let's take this discussion to the C3V Rules Team thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
You should not read this blog.

Why I Left the C3V
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Old June 30th, 2012, 05:51 PM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post

The question you really want answered is, which of those would trigger an Engagement Strike if we were talking about being next to a Nakita (or Arkmer, or the GIE). Whatever that answer is, the answer is the same for Elaria. Of those, Throw, Knockback, Carry, Evlen Summoning, Chain Grab, Talon Grab, and Pounce (plus Spear of Summoning and Glacier Traverse, to name the two that immediately spring to mind that you forgot) are definite yeses. The others, I confess that I'm not 100% sure on. Zombies Rise Again I'm pretty sure is a no: there's no movement involved, either thematically or mechanically (the power says "replace," which is neither "move" nor "place"). Which just leaves us with the cases where figures come from off the board: Cell Divide, Water Clone, and Summon Rechets (and the ones I can think of that you forgot from that group: the Drop, Summon Elemental, and Marro Rebirth). I'm pretty sure that since they all use the "place" wording, they're all yeses, mechanically, even though thematically that seems a bit weird.
Okay, so are we using "moving into engagement" as the trigger for Slippery 6? If there is a figure that is already engaged with Elaria that moves around Elaria to gain high ground, that would not trigger Slippery 6? The way that I read the card, that figure is ending its movement adjacent to Elaria, and therefore, she should get a chance to evade. But in the case of Engagement Strike, that would not trigger ES. I'm still a bit foggy on whether previously engaged figures can trigger Slippery 6.

DAFE31
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Old June 30th, 2012, 06:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Elaria the Pale

Quote:
Originally Posted by dafe31 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post

The question you really want answered is, which of those would trigger an Engagement Strike if we were talking about being next to a Nakita (or Arkmer, or the GIE). Whatever that answer is, the answer is the same for Elaria. Of those, Throw, Knockback, Carry, Evlen Summoning, Chain Grab, Talon Grab, and Pounce (plus Spear of Summoning and Glacier Traverse, to name the two that immediately spring to mind that you forgot) are definite yeses. The others, I confess that I'm not 100% sure on. Zombies Rise Again I'm pretty sure is a no: there's no movement involved, either thematically or mechanically (the power says "replace," which is neither "move" nor "place"). Which just leaves us with the cases where figures come from off the board: Cell Divide, Water Clone, and Summon Rechets (and the ones I can think of that you forgot from that group: the Drop, Summon Elemental, and Marro Rebirth). I'm pretty sure that since they all use the "place" wording, they're all yeses, mechanically, even though thematically that seems a bit weird.
Okay, so are we using "moving into engagement" as the trigger for Slippery 6? If there is a figure that is already engaged with Elaria that moves around Elaria to gain high ground, that would not trigger Slippery 6? The way that I read the card, that figure is ending its movement adjacent to Elaria, and therefore, she should get a chance to evade. But in the case of Engagement Strike, that would not trigger ES. I'm still a bit foggy on whether previously engaged figures can trigger Slippery 6.

DAFE31
It sounds like, to me, that she can use it after squadies move around her, a little like Bayonet Charge. Its a little unthematic, but it seems like the designers would have made it clearer if they meant for it to work on a once-per-engagement basis.
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