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  #517  
Old June 6th, 2021, 12:41 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Thanks! I just subscribed to that thread.

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  #518  
Old November 5th, 2021, 10:18 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
Rygarn should be undervalued in these ranking based on the criteria.

I have seen him in about 15 different games with about a dozen of them tournament games, and based on my evaluation of those games he is an A+.

However, those games were all some kind of draft or take 2 variant. When the power ranking is based on 500 point double blind best army, those games have little bearing on ranking Rygarn in this list due to format context.

It just bears a little odd that likely anytime you will see Rygarn in a competitive tournament setting he will play as an A or higher, but in a 500 point blind setting you just wont see him or he his best army will be outclassed, so thats how his rank should be reflected in this list.
Bumping this discussion from 2017 which has been in my head for a long time. Four years later, I think I found a 500 point double blind army that showcases Rygarn's order marker strengths even against the highest level of massed horde armies:

Rygarn
Raelin
Major Q9
Marro Warriors
Brute Gruts
Isamu

I won the VCheese 3 tournament with it, taking down Redcoats, Stingers+Vulcanmechs, Q9/Rae/Rats, and Blades with Kuthnak twice.

The idea of the the build is that with varied unique squad pieces each with a designated role, Rygarn's Chrono-Key is even more useful, because you can switch to the appropriate tool at the perfect moment. The army that I was playing was almost like a Splash build, in the sense of using a variety of pieces to have smooth matchups and a shot at winning every single game. You can freely use the Marro Warriors as an opener knowing you can switch the OMs off or to them to end their opening in a safe spot, you can freely ride Q9 as a ping with no screen knowing that you can flex OMs to Brute Gruts whenever to pound anything that gets close to him, you can flex OMs to Raelin to close out games. Even Isamu can be dangerous with an OM flex into Dishonorable Attack, and flexing OMs to Rygarn himself gives you a nice ping of 4 dice once Q9 is dead.

And of course Rygarn greatly helps with the messes you can get into in tournament games. He makes it very hard to lose order markers; I only lost one OM the entire tournament. Flexing when you make OM mistakes or when the round goes a completely different way than you expected is just fantastic utility that makes it really hard to get smashed out of a game.

The worst matchup for this build is probably massed Wait Then Fire range, which is strange for Q9, who normally wrecks those builds. But in this situation, he is the only good piece in the army against those guys, and with no Rats he won't last as long as he normally does, and he's probably not going to kill all of them. Against other shorter range like Stingers or Cathar, the enemy will have to close the gap enough to let the Brute Gruts come in and do some work, the Glad Blasts have to send in Glads for Brutes to clear out, so the build has a good shot. Against melee bonding I think is where this build really shines relative to the more standard Major Q9/Rats x4/Marro Warriors/Raelin build that dok and Chris Perkins and Shiftrex ran in this event. Brute Gruts are a great piece to give the army another gear when they can be perfectly timed by Rygarn. Emerging Brute Gruts on to a horde of approaching Knights after pinging them all the way across the board was not something I got to do this tournament but I think it's extremely powerful.

Side point, but the dok/CP/SR build imo doesn't have a high enough gear to deal with those melee hordes. Queglix's 3/3/3 isn't always enough; the 2010 classic dok build runs Hydra for 4/4/4/4 when it needs it, and my Brute Gruts have a similar high gear they can send this army into. Honestly, if I were running the dok/CP/SR build, I would have gone with Incendiborgs instead of Q9, owing to the fact that their torches can kind of simulate a higher gear, giving you 4/4/4 with some of the 4s hitting two figures.

dok's rankings currently have Rygarn ranked at a B+ which I think is way too low. I would say A. He's not quite as good as the Raelin/Rats/Marro Warriors top tier, but he's in that mold of incredible facilitator that fits well with many armies. Maybe even more broken in a strict sense of how much impact he had on my games, but the principle of what builds Rygarn makes better (armies without too many commons) will keep it hard to create a build with Rygarn that feels dominant or oppressive. At the end of the day, what I found is while my build didn't feel dominant, it continued to be able to squeak out wins, on the back of all of this Rygarn flexing, and getting the win is what matters, not how much you win by.
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  #519  
Old November 5th, 2021, 10:49 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

While it was a restricted list event (no MW/Raelin/Q9/Quahon/Nilfheim, max 9 of any common), I also won the Spring Showdown with a Rygarn build, too.

B+ is too low, I'm not sure A is warranted but maybe? He would be a low "A" but A is certainly arguable. A- for sure.

The other obvious movers from this event are Kuthnak and Brute Gruts. This might be a best army/best point total situation for both of them, but they both showed extremely strong in this event. Kuthnak belongs alongside the Blade Gruts at A-, and Brute Gruts could possibly join them.
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  #520  
Old November 5th, 2021, 11:38 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

I would put Brute Gruts at A- for now. I think they have room to go higher than that, but they're very unproven. Rygarn is a lot more tournament tested. I see them as an Airborne Elite A-; potential to absolutely stomp a game, but also potential to fizzle. At only 65 points you're okay with some fizzle though.

Their big weakness is lack of mobility. Getting the Brute Gruts into the fight intact is not easy. If you factor in Berserker Charge for the Tarn, the Brutes are tied with Ebon for the slowest melee unique squad in the game, and the Ebon can come back from the dead. They're very vulnerable to getting picked off before they get to the fight. My whole build was about making that risk less prominent.

But once the Brute Gruts are in the fight, they are lethal. Disengage is great utility and it's their worst power. Berserk is obviously great, but I think the key I've learned with playing them is to use it with restraint. I have never Berserked with them all three times. Losing a defense die from 4->3 is a huge step down in survivability and you really only want to do it when it's needed or very high value. Bully is imo their best power. It's great because it makes the Brute Gruts good against both squads and heroes; against heroes you can guarantee yourself Berserks, and against squads you get extra attack.

If I'm pulling out the theoryscape though, I wonder if Brute Gruts are just better than the Hydra. Like, in the 2010 dok build, isn't it just better to play Brute Gruts + Marro Warriors than Hydra? Some of that is Marro Warriors being good, but the Brute Gruts are cheap and give you the space for them.
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  #521  
Old November 5th, 2021, 11:47 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Curious to understand why Knights/Quahon/Nilfheim were all missing from this tournament. I suspect it has something to do with the point total favoring Gruts and Q9 builds?
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  #522  
Old November 5th, 2021, 12:01 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
Curious to understand why Knights/Quahon/Nilfheim were all missing from this tournament. I suspect it has something to do with the point total favoring Gruts and Q9 builds?
I don't think it had anything to with second level consequences of the point total, I think it was just that none lined up great with the 475 point total of this event.

For Quahon the best build was 35 points under. Quahon/Spiders x3/Raelin/Marro Warriors is 440. You could cut Marro Warriors and go full faith in Big Blue with Spiders x5/Quahon/Raelin for 470, but no one wanted to do it. No one wanted to play 30 points of filler either.

For Nilf it's basically the same thing. Greenscales x2/Nilfheim/Raelin/Marro Warriors is 435. No one really wants to break out Theracus for Cheese.

Knights are a bit weirder that no one chose. Boromir's masterful Knights x4/Gilbert/Raelin/Marro Warriors build for 520 charted a very powerful way of playing Knights but you couldn't really do the same thing at 475. I think Knights x5/Gilbert/Marcu or Knights x3/Gilbert/Raelin/Marro Warriors/Marcu/Isamu were very viable choices though.
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  #523  
Old November 5th, 2021, 01:03 PM
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My Thoughts

I agree with Rygarn, Kuthnak, and Brute Gruts all as A- figures.

I also think that Laglor is better in a VC meta than a standard one entirely due to the existence of the Troopers. Every other Vydar unit is too fragile to benefit from the bonus or can already do ridiculous things. Lags is also a solid endgame figure and both Troopers and Laglor really benefit from Raelin more than a lot of other figures with a similar role. Sometimes Hydra or something similar will be a better matchup smoother than Lags but I think he absolutely needs to be considered for any Trooper build.

~Dysole, who just added him in for spite reasons but after playing some games thinks there are some definite wheels to the build
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  #524  
Old November 5th, 2021, 04:46 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
Curious to understand why Knights/Quahon/Nilfheim were all missing from this tournament. I suspect it has something to do with the point total favoring Gruts and Q9 builds?
Knights are a bit weirder that no one chose. Boromir's masterful Knights x4/Gilbert/Raelin/Marro Warriors build for 520 charted a very powerful way of playing Knights but you couldn't really do the same thing at 475. I think Knights x5/Gilbert/Marcu or Knights x3/Gilbert/Raelin/Marro Warriors/Marcu/Isamu were very viable choices though.
It's a bit of a rock paper scissors thing. Some of the most important metagame triangles in the VCheese meta are dragons>rats>knights>dragons and dragons>spears>knights>dragons. With the Dragons not looking good at this point total (and with the best grut build hard to see), the natural enemies of rats appeared off the board. As such, rats looked really strong, so anyone considering a massed knight build had to be worried about running into a wall of rats (or spears).

It's sort of like, if we're playing rock paper scissors but nobody wants to throw paper, pretty soon nobody's going to throw scissors either, and we're left with a whole bunch of rocks. Of course there are other options that have different relationships with these units (e.g. massed ranged commons) but the point is the bad dragon total probably pushed the meta in a particular direction. Given that this was the first order analysis of the meta, we shouldn't be too surprised that the finalists are two somewhat unusual builds that both do particularly well going into rats. Predicting and countering a meta is a tricky game but IS and vegie both did a strong job of it.
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  #525  
Old November 20th, 2021, 09:35 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Going to make some nominations while the thread is still semi-active.


Boreos A- to B+

While I do understand that Boreos is by far the most important figure in the construct build (aside from Talingul himself), the construct build is not strong enough to warrant ranking its best figure at A-. There are currently no formal power rankings for overall armies in a 500 point, 24 hex VCheese meta, but if such rankings were to be created, I estimate that the Talingul build would be around B tier or so - the individual constructs are all powerhouses, but the army is heavily vulnerable to untimely defense whiffs, and most A- tier and above armies are able to beat it through sheer force of numbers. No matter how much value he provides to the build, it does not make sense for Boreos to be 2 subrankings higher than the aggregate strength of his best army. A drop to B+ would rectify this.

Shaolin Monks C to C+, Master Win Chiu Woo C to C+, Master Lao Xin C+ to B-

There's no way an army this stacked with offensive power should be languishing in the depths of C rank. I've always viewed the Monkroller in a similar light to the classic Steamroller army - both are fast, hard-hitting melee builds that suffer from having a much lower figure count compared to most of the top tier armies. The difference between the 2 is that while the steamroller does better into ranged builds due to the consistent 4 defense dice, the monkroller can be extremely obnoxious for melee armies to deal with because of the sheer number of attacks the monks can get. (Seriously, if a melee army has to attack into a monk pod the monks can often get up to 7-8 attacks per turn depending on how the figures are set up). The Capuans are still better than the Shaolins because doing well into both melee and range is better than doing great against melee but poorly into range, but even still, there's no way that the monks should be residing in C rank alongside stuff like the Marro Drudge, Granite Guardians and Deathstalkers. Master Win Chiu Woo should go up to C+ along with the Shaolins (for 510 points, by far the best army is Shaolins x3, Master Woo, Master Lao), with Lao Xin going up to B- as the figure that turns the army into a coherent whole.

Isamu A+ to A

Isamu doesn't provide enough consistent value to an army to be ranked alongside the other A+ figures. Raelin, Marro Warriors, Deathreavers and Q9 all provide consistent offensive, defensive or supportive value that is near-unparalleled among all other figures in the game. (That's what makes them A+ in the first place). Isamu, in comparison, can (usually) kill around 30-50 points worth of stuff and can (very infrequently) win a game for you that you otherwise would've lost. Even when you consider that he only costs 10 points, this just doesn't stack up. He's still very good for his points of course, but I view an A ranking alongside Marcu as much more fitting. There's something disingenuous about putting a 10 point filler unit who occasionally can do great things on the same pedestal as the 4 titans who dominate the modern metagame.

Nhah Scirh Cultists B to B+

Not a whole lot to say here other than that hard-countering dragons and having a good matchup into Q9 warrants these guys being B+ instead of B. They're like this weird mix of heavies and dwarves in that they share the superior board control and development of the axegrinders, but also do well into deathreaver and other range + screen builds thanks to disengage. Obviously the cultists aren't quite as good as either of those units because they lack bonding and a way to boost their stats outside of the dragon matchup, but either way, their strong matchups into several top meta threats makes them more worthwhile of a B+ ranking than a B imo.

Lilja C to C+

Lilja offers way more value to the construct build than any of the other C rank uniques can claim to offer their own best armies. 2 attacks of 4 per turn is really good for an army that can suffer with being out-attacked by opposing massed commons, and Shards is useful for dissuading your opponent to just swarm her with squaddies. She's still not a great figure by any stretch of the imagination, but she's way more useful than stuff like Kee-Mo-Shi and Rhogar Dragonspine.

Van Nessing B- to B

Van Nessing is good, and it has nothing to do with the Werewolf Lord. Being able to fire off 2 ranged special attacks of 3 on a single order marker is very solid, and the ability to take 2 turns 'for the price of one' has a whole bunch of other applications as well, such as allowing him to develop up extremely quickly or to kill a figure on a glyph and then immediately claim it himself. While he can't hit as hard as other ranged figures around his point value (such as the Krav or B-11's), he makes up for this through his relative tankiness and anti-undead abilities. He works a treat with some of the more defensive 3-man common squads such as the Marro Dividers, and overall is just a really solid offensive support figure. As such, I think a raise to B rank is warranted.


If anyone has any thoughts regarding these nominations I'd love to hear them.

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  #526  
Old November 27th, 2021, 09:07 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Does no one actually care about these rankings or something? It's been 7 days now and I've seen absolutely 0 discussion on either the forums or discord about any of these nominations besides Isamu. I put a good amount of work into this post, and the complete lack of interest from the community in these proposed changes is more than a bit disheartening, not going to lie.

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  #527  
Old November 27th, 2021, 10:34 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

It's Thanksgiving week in the United States, so the boards aren't particularly active right now.

That said, I personally do not care. But I also don't play Valhallascape at all, so, you know, why would I?

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


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  #528  
Old November 27th, 2021, 11:23 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Dok can speak for himself, GW, but I think he might say something like this about why Isamu is an A+.

Isamu is simply an auto-include if you have 10 points available for your army. More to the point, Isamu gives you so much for 10 points that any time you build an army for X points, your challenge is to make that army better than (X-10)+Isamu. No other figure exerts that level of influence over the metagame, because no other unit - not even Raelin - gives you so much punch for such a discounted price.

That’s my version of the Dok presentation on Isamu. I suspect he’d say it differently, and possibly also tell me that I’m wrong.

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