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  #121  
Old November 18th, 2010, 08:04 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBeeblebrox View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killometer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by krysto2002 View Post
Awww, now you change it...
That's going to be a real tough call for me. My heart says Asmodeus becuase I'm a diehard fan, but my head says Raptors because people might actually use them someday...
We actually changed it a couple days ago, on account of your nomination-bomb. Call it the "krysto rule"-you've left your mark on the SoV.
I forgot, I was so glad to see Krysto re-enter the two I liked the best...that i forgot the new rule.
Don't worry ZB, put a 3rd arm on zaphod and we'll forgive you (I LOVE DOUGLASS ADAM'S BOOK! Seriously, my original sig was going to a quote from his series!)

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  #122  
Old November 18th, 2010, 09:00 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

to Asmodeus.

Yes, I get it, he's a character from Redwall.

But if there was a character from LotR named "Zeus," and Zeus was a walking tree, I'd vote to a walking tree named that, too.

Some names have lots of baggage that come with them.

I suspect I may be in the minority on this one, and Asmodeus may pass into the review stage, and that's fine.

If Asmodeus dies, do venom-ized figures keep rolling? Hmm.

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Last edited by Dad_Scaper; November 18th, 2010 at 09:16 PM.
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  #123  
Old November 18th, 2010, 09:09 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

For whatever reason I can't take Asmodeus seriously. I just keep picturing Kaa singing "Trust in me, just in me"



I like the Raptor better.

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  #124  
Old November 18th, 2010, 09:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post
For whatever reason I can't take Asmodeus seriously. I just keep picturing Kaa singing "Trust in me, just in me"



I like the Raptor better.
So do I, but it's still in progress (fine-tuning).
Try this instead:


Soooo, is it the name, really? Is that all you hate about this unit? If that is in fact the case, there's a very large community of Redwall fans just waiting to hear about blatant prejudice... Just kidding, but seriously, if all you hate is the name, and it is a custom after a book character, that would be like saying you didn't like someone's Harry Potter custom because you don't like the name Harry. It's illogical!

If that's the case, I can always edit in his full name, which is acutally Asmodeus Poisonteeth.

Sometimes, you just have to start over.

Last edited by krysto2002; November 18th, 2010 at 10:10 PM.
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  #125  
Old November 18th, 2010, 11:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by krysto2002 View Post
if all you hate is the name, and it is a custom after a book character, that would be like saying you didn't like someone's Harry Potter custom because you don't like the name Harry. It's illogical!
I'm not trying to put words in DaddyScaper's mouth, but it could be partly because it's a character from a book. To use your example, if someone made a Harry Potter custom, I would vote against it, specifically on the basis that it's Harry Potter, because it would feel out of place to me. Don't forget, theme is one of the key things we are judging on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killometer, in the op View Post
Theme-Does it fit in the HS universe?
As for me, I also vote NO to review Asmodeus. His points now seem appropriate, but I have been puzzling over exactly how Venemous Bite works for the last 3 hours, and if I haven't figured it out yet, it still needs work.

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  #126  
Old November 19th, 2010, 09:23 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

I also have concerns about units named after characters from other worlds. I won't go into it all here, but I have posted several times about the generic nature of the vast majority of Scape figures.

The simple version: Scape figures work in terms of representing types. They work because each figure has some identity given, but also ties into many other types and stories that each player brings to the game. This amplifies the fun of Scape, imo, making it more personal and engaging.

For example, when I play Sgt. Drake, he is a well conceived Scape character, he has a story and a feel that suits him well. But beyound that he is also respresentative of any/all military heroes--for some he reminds them of GI Joe, for others their uncle fighting in Iraq, for another a grandfather who died in one of the WWs. He is a type--a well conceived type with his own story, if you don't have one to map on to him--but a type nonetheless. He allows you to enjoy him as much for what he is as for all the things he represents.

This is why Sudema is not called Medusa, imo. (Yes, there are a couple of exceptions to this rule, but they are rare and have reasons, I believe.) Anyhow, I encourage you to think about that with this figure.

-----

In fact, if I were doing this, I'd actually include a short bio piece with my nomination, as well as the exact sculpt I was using, maybe even a link to where someone could buy one. But that's just me--I know, my OCD .

-----

Anyhow, returning to the unit at hand, I am also a bit puzzled by some of the phrasing, such as the "any or all" phrase. And I also worry a bit about how potent the unit is for heroes. I'd like to see a way to shrug off the poison, for example, someway that it might be removed (maybe a d20 roll, rather than an attack dice roll, that allows for a 17-20 to remove the poison token from the game). I'm nervous that with an early strike this unit can basically leave any hero as a walking dead man. That power seems a bit overpowered to me. (Yes, in squadscape, not so much, but this unit needs to be balanced for all Scape, which includes Dungeon Crawls, Unique Hero tourneys, etc.)

Finally, I'm not sure why this unit bonds with the Arrow Gruts. If the unit was a Grut Viper, well, then that would seem more compelling and interesting, to me, anyway--much more Scape. (There are lots of other ways to make this work, but that's just an example.)

Also, I apologize, you may have mentioned it earlier, but I don't see it now, where does this sculpt come from? What is it's name if I'm looking for it (at Auggie's or elsewhere).

So, yes, I am voting NO to review Asmodeus, but I am interested in this unit (and the Raptor, btw). I just feel that it isn't fully balanced and clearly worded, quite yet.

Thanks for working on these. I feel confident that we'll see a krysto SoV unit in the future. You've got fun ideas and are committed to working on these. Thanks!
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  #127  
Old November 19th, 2010, 09:45 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

I agree that part of what makes something fit into the Heroscape theme is a generic nature. Just to apply this idea to another set of figures - I've looked at a lot of star wars minis lately. Many of them could make very nice HS minis in theory, but when I look at a storm trooper, it's a storm trooper, and no amount of backstory is going change that. Some other figures aren't obviously from Star Wars (at least to me), so they seem like better candidates for conversion.

I don't feel the same way about historical figures, or about classic mythological figures. And of course, there's a place for conversions of entire canons - we have entire LotR and Star Wars minis projects, after all, and of course the Marvel/C3G figures work from an existing backstory. But that's not what Valhalla-scape is about, in my opinion.

To me, a name being a direct reference to another work of fiction isn't a point in that figure's favor - it's a strike against it.
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  #128  
Old November 19th, 2010, 11:10 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

Both Spartacus and Parmenio were real people.
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  #129  
Old November 19th, 2010, 11:13 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiyu0707 View Post
Both Spartacus and Parmenio were real people.
Those are non-fiction references though. They were speaking of fictional characters from outside of Scape.

If you are just looking to get into Scape, I have plenty of terrain to get you started!
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  #130  
Old November 19th, 2010, 11:13 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiyu0707 View Post
Both Spartacus and Parmenio were real people.
Right. Which is why I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I don't feel the same way about historical figures, or about classic mythological figures.
The point is, Valhalla-scape has stayed away from figures that originate from another modern fictional canon. The only exception, really, is the Mindflayer Mastermind.

Last edited by dok; November 19th, 2010 at 11:53 AM. Reason: Crixus was a real person too, while we're at it.
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  #131  
Old November 19th, 2010, 11:15 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

krysto2002's Asmodeus has received 3 NO votes and is removed from the process.

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Last edited by Killometer; December 4th, 2010 at 02:11 PM.
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  #132  
Old November 19th, 2010, 11:47 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla-nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiyu0707 View Post
Both Spartacus and Parmenio were real people.
Yes. And their HeroScape identities respect those real people and make some effort to capture them, thematically.

And when HeroScape takes something from a fictional universe in its cross-branding exercises, it has made an effort to stay close, thematically, to the original. Notably, even as iconic a fictional creature as Medusa comes into 'Scape renamed, even if just a little.

When the names have baggage, HeroScape has historically captured that baggage in the theme. "Asmodeus" is a name with a ton of baggage, though apparently Krysto didn't know it at the time. It has baggage both from the world of fiction - AD&D Lord of the Nine Hells - and from the world of mythology, it being the name of the King of Demons. Put that name on a card and, in the tradition of HeroScape, those things should be captured thematically.

There is a whole secondary issue relating to whether we want to be taking characters from discrete works of contemporary fiction as well. Would I even *want* a Lord Voldemort? A Luke Skywalker, or Gandalf the Grey? Probably not. That's a separate issue, which some of my fellow judges have discussed above. I don't get that far, really, because I'm stuck on the first issue.

I'm not going to apologize for being stubborn about a small thing. I'm not going to green light a unit that does not fit, thematically, perfectly into the 'Scape canon.

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