Should Anti-vaxxer's be liable?

[Hal0fan117]

First: You're taking this way too seriously. You haven't used a winky smilie in this entire topic

Second: My tonsils were taken out when I was 8 but I have no evidence of it. I can tell you that ate nothing but Chicken soup and Ice cream the next week, but you probably wouldn't beleive me, eh?

Third: Science can't explain a LOT of things. You seem to be relying too heavily on it. You keep saying nobody has any evidence. In that case, I want evidence of everything you've said too. Let's see the study that says kids who recieved vaccinations and those who didn't recieve them are the same.

I already said that I didn't think Vaccines were the whole cause, only a very small part of it, maybe just the trigger for a few kids like Cavalier said. But if you're gonna be aggressive, then let's see how far we can take this debate.

[jschild]

No, you seem to equate getting tonsils getting taken out (like my son's is getting taken out tommorow) as common as someone, somehow, getting 80 vaccination shots in ONE day. That doesn't happen. Period.

Second....http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...003673,00.html

Thats a survery of over a half million kids, and is just one of many. No scientific study has shown any link.

and if you really want to dig deep...

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/IOM-Reports.htm and http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/IOMrepo...Autism2004.htm

and a good detailed read of the history of debunking ...
http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jun...&b_start:int=0

I'm not being aggresive, I'm being incredulous. I simply cannot take as serious anyone who would claim they got 80 vaccination shots in one day and also confuse autism with mercury poisoning.

[Agent Minivann]

Originally Posted by jschild

The issue isn't about individual parents, but the ones going on TV, talking in magazines, etc, saying that vaccines are the cause when there is ZERO evidence.
<snip>
I understand the anger, I understand NEEDING to blame something. I don't understand protecting someone who lied to you though. I don't understand wasting time and money defending the indefensible just to make yourself sleep better at night.

I don't say "go after" McCarthy because she is not the one lying. She could be lying, but more likely she is a pawn of the ones that are lying. I don't give her enough credit to understand that there is more to science than finding the one magic scientific study that says whatever supports your feel goods. Never mind the fact that the study is now useless as data.

Now if we're talking about going after someone like the guy who falsified the data in the bum study, or someone like Robert Kennedy for his POS article that is held up as proof positive that there is a conspiracy to suppress the "proof", by all means. Take out the king and the game is over. Keep knocking off pawns and the game continues.

[jschild]

Very good point Minivann!

[Hal0fan117]

I'm reading the others now, but the first one from time magazine was done in Denmark. Pretty sure the vaccines are different here.

Still don't see any numbers or graphs or anything either. Just articles put together by people who have seen or heard about tests.

So far though, it looks like the other articles are only talking about certain vaccines. I'm suggesting that when a person has ALL vaccines at once they might trigger autism.

Anybody else wanna jump in?It's 11 here and I'm getting kind of tired. I'll be here tomorrow though. then we can continue

[jschild]

So you have no training, no evidence, just one outright impossible story and one contradicting one, but the onus is on me and the entire scientific community to prove your anecdote wrong.

Sorry, but I got all I needed from you with your 80 vaccinations in one day story.

[Hal0fan117]

After going over the threads you've created, I think this is the only one I really hate. It's not even the topic that irks me, I don't care one way or another. It's you're attitude. I'll be honest, I enjoyed you're "Take that banana, Kirk Cameron" Thread, it was probably the best 10 minutes I spent that day watching that video. But you're so...close minded on the subject. I guess I'll pull an Aldin and just say that there's no way we could change the others mind, so there's no point in debating it further. I wold like to know why you feel so strongly about this. Is you're kid autistic? Do you work as a scientist, or doctor, or journalist? My little brother was autistic and I don't feel as strongly about it as you.

Hal0fan117~reluctantly

[Agent Minivann]

I haven't looked through the linked articles yet, but just off the top of my head...

Originally Posted by Hal0fan117

I'm reading the others now, but the first one from time magazine was done in Denmark. Pretty sure the vaccines are different here.

The Danish stuff is significant because Denmark removed the "bad guy" thimerosal a while ago, and there is data available before and after. They didn't see the decrease in autism that should have happened if the mercury in the vaccines indeed causes autism.

Originally Posted by Hal0fan117

Still don't see any numbers or graphs or anything either. Just articles put together by people who have seen or heard about tests.

The stuff you are looking for is in the journals. They are tedious to read at best, and they are not easily understood even with nice charts and graphs. Having some college statistics and biology under your belt helps, but it is still a lot of work to get through.

Originally Posted by Hal0fan117

So far though, it looks like the other articles are only talking about certain vaccines. I'm suggesting that when a person has ALL vaccines at once they might trigger autism.

MMR is talked about a lot because that is the classic "cause" of autism in the folklore. It has been very well studied as a potential cause of autism. Thimerosal is getting there. MMR didn't really turn out to be the "smoking gun", so they switched to thimerosal. I think it was latched onto because injecting a toxic element into kids sounds really scary. There's an emotional hook. It's not a bad idea to get it out of vaccines, but is it a cause, survey says "no". Suggesting that the cumulative effect of many vaccines is the cause is something new to me. It looks like a natural progression of the blame game. It's fairly definitively not MMR, so lets go to Thimerosal. It's fairly definitively not Thimerosal, so let's go to the total package of vaccines?

[jschild]

It's simple. I don't believe you got 80 vaccinations in a day. It just simply doesn't happen.

Also, your brother could not get mercury poisoning from vaccinations (which is fairly easy to determine as the doctors apparently did). Mercury poisoning is not a minor condition and can impact mental development and can also be reversed in many situations. However, there is no simple "cure" for autism.

Your first post was a challenge, then was completely rewrote. In other words, it just doesn't add up.

[Hal0fan117]

Minivann: Not a blame game really, just have to keep up the argument. I think it's more diet related, and maybe triggered by vaccines, like Cavalier said.

jschild:My first post was posted about halfway through reading the topic, because didn't see page 3. It was posted right under the answer to the question I asked, which was what this info is based off of, then rewritten because it was essentially spam, and I changed it into a rebuttal. My brother WAS Autistic. He isn't know, or doesn't show any signs of being Autistic. If you really want to know the details of my family's medical history, I can have a real life Autism Mom debate it with you, assuming she's not busy doing carpool.

Anyway, I'm done debating the topic with you, you obviously have a stance on the subject that you will not change.

You still haven't answered my question, about what connection you have on the subject that would make you even post the topic, knowing it was so controversial.

[Aldin]

jschild,

I have now spent several hours researching the topic and I think you are overstating your case. It turns out we know very little about the causes and triggers of the spectrum of disorders labeled as autism. There is an almost certain genetic component demonstrated in some cases. There is no study which shows what may trigger autism, especially in cases of regressive autism where the child initially functions normally (acknowledging that some autism may not have a trigger and may be entirely genetic). Further, there is demonstrated evidence that some forms of autism can be overcome with therapy.

There are several current, ongoing studies looking for links between vaccines and autism. They are, quite frankly, looking for links between anything that might be a trigger and autism. As of yet, as noted earlier, no triggers have been found. On that basis, the prevailing opinion of the scientific community at this time seems to be that they find a causal relationship between vaccinations and autism to be extremely unlikely and/or rare.

Given the inability to demonstrate what the cause may be however, and given the inability to prove that it is impossible for vaccinations to at least occasionally be a triggering agent for some type or types of autism, your contention that those who believe and promote that there is a link (based on anecdotal evidence) should be criminally punished goes too far.

~Aldin, who found this WebMD article to be very good as well as current http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/se...accines-autism

[Agent Minivann]

Originally Posted by Aldin

jschild,

I have now spent several hours researching the topic and I think you are overstating your case. It turns out we know very little about the causes and triggers of the spectrum of disorders labeled as autism. There is an almost certain genetic component demonstrated in some cases. There is no study which shows what may trigger autism, especially in cases of regressive autism where the child initially functions normally (acknowledging that some autism may not have a trigger and may be entirely genetic). Further, there is demonstrated evidence that some forms of autism can be overcome with therapy.

There are several current, ongoing studies looking for links between vaccines and autism. They are, quite frankly, looking for links between anything that might be a trigger and autism. As of yet, as noted earlier, no triggers have been found. On that basis, the prevailing opinion of the scientific community at this time seems to be that they find a causal relationship between vaccinations and autism to be extremely unlikely and/or rare.

Given the inability to demonstrate what the cause may be however, and given the inability to prove that it is impossible for vaccinations to at least occasionally be a triggering agent for some type or types of autism, your contention that those who believe and promote that there is a link (based on anecdotal evidence) should be criminally punished goes too far.

~Aldin, who found this WebMD article to be very good as well as current http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/se...accines-autism

I think that is really highlighting the damage that is being done by the anti-vaccine crowd. There is a very definite advantage to vaccinating that enhances the health and well being of the community as a whole. There is really no understood cause of autism. The anti-vaccine crowd is really driving what research is being done into finding the causes of autism. The scientific community is on a wild goose chase without some compelling new hypothesis that can really justify continued research into vaccine caused autism. Sure there might be some ancillary discovery that is stumbled upon through continued research that is otherwise beating a dead horse, but for now the best course of action is to move onto some other hypothesis for the cause of autism.

As it stands there has been one study that found a link, but that study has been seriously refuted and the findings have not been duplicated. Other scientists duplicating the findings is essential to advancing the scientific understanding. It's not an optional feature. Cold fusion made major headlines many years ago, but no one has been able to duplicate the findings. It was a fluke, it was an error, or it was a fake. It needs to be let go for there to be serious progress. Vaccine caused autism studies are sexy, so they will likely get the lion's share of research funding as long as they are around. I think that is the point.