HoME Brainstorming Thread

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Hmm. Lurtz's bow seems more like a secondary weapon to me. I would rather give him an ability relating to melee or his obscene toughness.

I've always viewed it the other way - he only uses the bow until Aragorn knocks it away, then he goes for mele

[caps]

Then I would stick with 5 range, 4 attack and call it a day on his ranged attack. That is among the heftiest ranged attacks in the game, Give him 7 life or something else that makes him resilient.

[Shiftrex]

That sounds super boss, it shows off a powerful bow but still contains his accuracy to not be on par with Elves.

I also agree with a chunky life total. Most physical attributes can be represented well with stats in my opinion.

[Shiftrex]

NAME = Uruk-hai Scouts

GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Common Squad (4 figures)
CLASS = Scout
PERSONALITY = Menacing/Merciless/Relentless (just other ideas than wild)
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5?

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100

(Possible powers)

ISENGARDERS
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure, blanks count as skulls.

SARUMAN'S WILL
If an Uruk-hai Scout ends its normal movement unengaged you may move each Uruk-hai scout up to 2 additional spaces as long as they do not end their movement adjacent to enemy figures.

FIND THE HALFLINGS/CAPTURE
Before moving an Uruk-hai Scout, choose a small enemy figure adjacent to him. After you move the Uruk-hai scout, place the chosen figure adjacent to that Uruk-hai scout. A figure that has been moved with CAPTURE never takes leaving engagement strikes.

----------------------

Just some spitballed powers here since the first Uruk-hai up to bat for designs would be the party that killed Boromir and snatched up the hobbits. From the research I've been looking at, the party that we see in the Fellowship were classified as scouts led by Ugluk. I think it'd be cool to have some thematic powers identifying them as a specific type of Uruk-hai in addition to their class as a scout.

There is supposed to be a distinction between Uruk-hai that were made by Saruman in the third age which were called Isengarders and the ones from Mordor that were called Black Uruks or Mordor Uruks. Maybe I'm not taking them in the right direction but I think all the Uruk-hai that have the symbol of the white hand should have an ability called ISENGARDERS to identify that piece of their lore if it's possible. Helps break them up further if that's something we are interested in since we are separating Moria Orcs from their Mordor counterparts with the Cave Dweller ability.

The statline puts these guys as even with Heavy Gruts, I was hesitant to put more attack or defense on them because I was going for scouts.

[Splash]

Could name the card or the ability White Hand Uruk Hai. And the others Uruk Hai Of Mordor. Also using the blanks is an amazing idea.

[Chris Perkins]

Regarding blanks as skulls, without height thats the same expected value as just giving them 4 attack (4*0.5 = 2 = 3*(2/3)). It only makes a difference when they gain height, as then their 4 attack is slightly stronger than 5 without the power. Not necessarily an argument for or against, just an observation.

I do think there's a potential issue with dice though. This power means you cannot use the red/blue dice from Ms1 version 1 with this card on attacks (previously only true for flagbearer powers i think). Not necessarily a show stopper but worth thinking about.

[White Knight]

The blanks as skulls power makes me uneasy because I use the red/blue dice, but it's not a deal breaker for me. I'd be just as happy with them rolling an extra attack die.

I really like the movement power--perfect for the Uruk-hai that captured the hobbits.

My only concern is that in a normal game Capture will not be used to move enemy figures--it will be used to carry along a goblin or other small friendly figure. It could be used in a scenario, but we could also just give them that power in a scenario.


Also, shouldn't these ideas be in the Brainstorming thread?

[Shiftrex]

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

NAME = Uruk-hai Scouts

GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Common Squad (4 figures)
CLASS = Scout
PERSONALITY = Menacing/Merciless/Relentless (just other ideas than wild)
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5?

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100

(Possible powers)

ISENGARDERS
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure, blanks count as skulls.

SARUMAN'S WILL
If an Uruk-hai Scout ends its normal movement unengaged you may move each Uruk-hai scout up to 2 additional spaces as long as they do not end their movement adjacent to enemy figures.

FIND THE HALFLINGS/CAPTURE
Before moving an Uruk-hai Scout, choose a small enemy figure adjacent to him. After you move the Uruk-hai scout, place the chosen figure adjacent to that Uruk-hai scout. A figure that has been moved with CAPTURE never takes leaving engagement strikes.

----------------------

Just some spitballed powers here since the first Uruk-hai up to bat for designs would be the party that killed Boromir and snatched up the hobbits. From the research I've been looking at, the party that we see in the Fellowship were classified as scouts led by Ugluk. I think it'd be cool to have some thematic powers identifying them as a specific type of Uruk-hai in addition to their class as a scout.

There is supposed to be a distinction between Uruk-hai that were made by Saruman in the third age which were called Isengarders and the ones from Mordor that were called Black Uruks or Mordor Uruks. Maybe I'm not taking them in the right direction but I think all the Uruk-hai that have the symbol of the white hand should have an ability called ISENGARDERS to identify that piece of their lore if it's possible. Helps break them up further if that's something we are interested in since we are separating Moria Orcs from their Mordor counterparts with the Cave Dweller ability.

The statline puts these guys as even with Heavy Gruts, I was hesitant to put more attack or defense on them because I was going for scouts.

Originally Posted by Splash

Could name the card or the ability White Hand Uruk Hai. And the others Uruk Hai Of Mordor. Also using the blanks is an amazing idea.

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

Regarding blanks as skulls, without height thats the same expected value as just giving them 4 attack (4*0.5 = 2 = 3*(2/3)). It only makes a difference when they gain height, as then their 4 attack is slightly stronger than 5 without the power. Not necessarily an argument for or against, just an observation.

I do think there's a potential issue with dice though. This power means you cannot use the red/blue dice from Ms1 version 1 with this card on attacks (previously only true for flagbearer powers i think). Not necessarily a show stopper but worth thinking about.

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

Regarding blanks as skulls, without height thats the same expected value as just giving them 4 attack (4*0.5 = 2 = 3*(2/3)). It only makes a difference when they gain height, as then their 4 attack is slightly stronger than 5 without the power. Not necessarily an argument for or against, just an observation.

I do think there's a potential issue with dice though. This power means you cannot use the red/blue dice from Ms1 version 1 with this card on attacks (previously only true for flagbearer powers i think). Not necessarily a show stopper but worth thinking about.

Went with Chris' suggestion to move the conversation over to Brainstorming, it probably does belong over here. I just get caught up replying to stuff where it is.

Also, in response to the power that uses blanks. I wouldn't be opposed to calling it the White Hand because that's what I was going for. I wanted something across the board that could be placed on Isenguard Uruks to identify them with good old Saruman. Can easily be reworded if we don't like using the white blanks on common dice as an identifier or the wording can just be changed to be dice inclusive so we get the effect of the "miss" being a skull:

ISENGARDERS/THE WHITE HAND
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure, anything except a shield counts as a skull. (not sure if the "miss" on a die is an actual term to reference)

OR

When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack dice against a human, add one additional die (this is simple but that's not a bad thing as a movie quote was that the Isenguard Uruk's were bred with a single purpose, to destroy the world of men.)


It'd be cool if we could get to a spot where the "boost" and the movement power were both useable on these guys because it does have a "scouty" feel to it and the theme is fun because it shouldn't allow them to attack as written but rather to position.

I'm fine relegating capture to a scenario power but I do want to point out if you read it that the concern that you voiced (Chris) does not exist. You can't "capture" your own goblin or small figure to bring along with you because the power is not carry. It only works on enemy figures.

[Chris Perkins]

I like the addition of Uruk Scouts as a general concept, having more versions of the 'core bad' squad is a good thing I think.

That being said, I think the main difference between the 'scouts' and 'normal' Sauroman Uruks should be that the Scouts have a lower attack and the 'normal' ones do not have any form of the 'carry' power (whatever it ends up being). So the scouts become the 'tactical rearrangement' squad (maybe this should even be a unique squad? worth thinking about) and the 'normal' Uruks become the 'heavy attack' squad.

Also worth discussing if the scouts should be 3 or 4 person squad. If common, I'm leaning toward 3 to make the distinction bigger but should be 4 if unique.

For Carry - how about allowing them to carry any small, non-orc figure. Seems more thematic (Uruks would never have carried an orc) but allows some interesting army choice where maybe you put scouts & Merry/Pippin in the same build for synergy.

I also like the idea of them sharing some kind of 'White Hand' power; no idea what it should be yet though.

[Shiftrex]

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

I like the addition of Uruk Scouts as a general concept, having more versions of the 'core bad' squad is a good thing I think.

That being said, I think the main difference between the 'scouts' and 'normal' Sauroman Uruks should be that the Scouts have a lower attack and the 'normal' ones do not have any form of the 'carry' power (whatever it ends up being). So the scouts become the 'tactical rearrangement' squad (maybe this should even be a unique squad? worth thinking about) and the 'normal' Uruks become the 'heavy attack' squad.

Also worth discussing if the scouts should be 3 or 4 person squad. If common, I'm leaning toward 3 to make the distinction bigger but should be 4 if unique.

For Carry - how about allowing them to carry any small, non-orc figure. Seems more thematic (Uruks would never have carried an orc) but allows some interesting army choice where maybe you put scouts & Merry/Pippin in the same build for synergy.

I also like the idea of them sharing some kind of 'White Hand' power; no idea what it should be yet though.

Those are pretty dope suggestions, that means they could look something like...

NAME = Uruk-hai Scouts

GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Common Squad (at 3 figures) or Unique Squad (at 4 figures)
CLASS = Scout
PERSONALITY = Menacing/Merciless/Relentless (just other ideas than wild)
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5?

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 2
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100

(Possible powers)

ISENGARDERS
When an Uruk-hai Scout rolls an attack against a human figure, anything that isn't a shield counts as a skull.

SARUMAN'S WILL
If an Uruk-hai Scout ends its normal movement unengaged you may move each Uruk-hai scout up to 2 additional spaces as long as they do not end their movement adjacent to enemy figures.

CARRY/FIND THE HALFLINGS/CAPTURE
Before moving an Uruk-hai Scout, choose a small non-Orc figure adjacent to him. After you move the Uruk-hai scout, place the chosen figure adjacent to that Uruk-hai scout. A figure that has been moved with CAPTURE never takes leaving engagement strikes.


-------------

We might be able to get away with slightly more focused/complex figures if we move these guys to unique squads and at 100 points they wouldn't be overwhelming I don't think. Their stats make them straight up weaker than Heavies if comparing point values and just numbers, the abilities seem comparable in my mind to make them similar in value. If we went the route of Unique squad we would need to keep the Viking spirits in mind which would be a cool way to play, don't know if that's the useability we want though.

Additionally, one of these powers could be dropped and added onto Ugluk as his "empowerment" but I would say that I want the ISENGARDERS/WHITE HAND ability to stay, though it can definitely change in scope. It's a touch decision because these guys should be made to be supplemented by Ugluk, so they can't be too amazing by themselves.

[caps]

I don't want to refer to "blanks" in special powers, nor to faces that don't show shields/skulls.

I like the idea of +1 attack against humans as a White Hand power. That's a decent power that works against a lot of great figures.


What if we just use TRACKING instead of Saruman's Will?


What about reusing Brontos's ABDUCT but only for small non-orc figures? I am fine with calling it FIND THE HALFLINGS

[Chris Perkins]

The more I think about it the more I like these guys as a Unique squad. From a thematic standpoint, there were like 100-200 of them in the party that attacked the fellowship, compared with ~ 10,000 Uruk heavy warriors at the Hornburg.

Also, I think we can do some cooler powers if they're unique. And the 'moving other figures' thing isn't something you'll want a ton of in your army anyways, so from a competition standpoint it works as unique also.