How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

[TREX]

Originally Posted by Kajoq

I think the fall expansion is really going to be the make or break point for a lot of players in your situation. If they handle it right it can add the right amount of added flexibility and squad building.

Lets hope so, cause this one is falling fast on my list of games. I was super excited about it, but the makers are letting it die. This fall is where I decide whether it stays or not in my cycle of games we play.

[caps]

Originally Posted by TREX

Lets hope so, cause this one is falling fast on my list of games. I was super excited about it, but the makers are letting it die. This fall is where I decide whether it stays or not in my cycle of games we play.

I know what you mean. I'm playing Scape again in a week or so and I don't even plan on including any AotP units this time.

[chas]

You just have to wait and wait. Hey, doesn't it remind you of...Kicsktarter?

[nate the dawg]

Originally Posted by chas

You just have to wait and wait. Hey, doesn't it remind you of...Kicsktarter?

Yeah, except that with 'Scape/Arena I've never thrown money at product then had to send out b****/moan/complain emails to to get what I'd paid for!

[TREX]

Originally Posted by chas

You just have to wait and wait. Hey, doesn't it remind you of...Kicsktarter?

I'm backing my first kickstarter right now for Rum and Bones 2nd tide(it ends in a couple days), I am pretty hopeful that it goes well when its time to ship out product. Much more excited for this game. Anyone have any new details on what we will see in the next expansion for AOTP. A link maybe? I would love to get excited about it again.

[Prometheus]

I cross-played with AotP for the first time today and am still trying to decide how balanced I think it is. My opponent used Gideon's army from the AotP starter set (500 points of units + 200 points of spells); I used a 700-point elf wizard army with Raelin and Haduc for defense, and got stomped. The ability to enchant units and increase their defense meant that he was typically rolling 5+ defense dice (with no need for a squishy aura unit like Raelin). That combined with the squads having 3 life for each figure meant that I struggled to put a dent in his army and ended up losing 200+ points worth of units before killing a single squad figure. Ouch.

However, given that he was only able to field 1 planeswalker and 2 squads for 700 points, I think I could have beaten him if I had been running a different army. The point in the game where I lost was when his planeswalker summoned a squad of Kor in the middle of my army, where they were able to kill Raelin and Ulginesh easily. The fact that planeswalkers can summon squads anywhere within 5 clear sight spaces (teleporting them past your front line) is extremely dangerous, and I was left feeling that against planeswalkers I should run an all-melee army or an army comprised mostly of large, powerful creatures, instead of one that relies on range and a strong defensive front line.

I don't think the point values are 100% compatible, but may be close enough to work. The squads seem cheaper than they should be considering how many life they have (60 points for 9 life worth of Kor), and the spells seem extremely cheap, such as a 10-point spell that heals 2 wounds--who wouldn't pay 220 for an 11-life Charos, or 90 for a 7-life Raelin? However, then you have a 350 cost planeswalker who, while formidable, don't seem much more powerful than dragons who are noticeably cheaper. I would treat it similarly to Marvelscape--they almost certainly weren't playtested together, but they were probably designed with the same point system in mind, so you could play them together and the planeswalkers won't always win or always lose.

[TREX]

@Prometheus Here is something some of us came up with a while ago. It works pretty well with the two games.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by TREX

@Prometheus Here is something some of us came up with a while ago. It works pretty well with the two games.

Thanks! I've seen that ruleset and this one from chas:

Spoiler Alert!

Originally Posted by chas

PLANESCAPE

RULES FOR ADDING
MAGIC THE GATHERING: ARENA OF THE PLANESWALKERS (AP)
INTO HEROSCAPE (HS)

By Chas (Draft 2: 2/25/16)



Rules for both games are used, except where noted below.


1. Each player may use one Planeswalker (PW) in their army, who starts as that army does on the battlefield. Their own point cost and that of their spell deck must be paid separately.

2. All PW creatures must also be paid for separately. They start in the Reserve, and
must be summoned onto the battlefield.

3. Planeswalkers and PW Creatures are activated by Scape Order Markers, as are Scape figures.

4. If your Planeswalker is killed, his/her uncast spells and unsummoned creatures are out of the game.

5. When your Planeswalker takes a turn, he/she follows the AP turn sequence.

6. "Target Creatures" on Spell cards refers to only AOTP Creatures.

***

MTG: ARENA OF THE PLANESWALKERS: REVISED TURN SEQUENCE

1. Draw a spell card and cast spells. *

2. Select an army card and cast spells. *

3. Summon (if planeswalker was selected) and cast spells. *

4. Move selected figure(s).

5. Attack with selected figure(s).

6. Cast spells. *

7. (MTG:AOTP ONLY: End turn and advance the turn marker).


*You may only cast up to 3 spells during your entire turn.

I think I prefer the latter, for a few reasons:
-Not having the planeswalker be an order marker hub makes it feel more like playing Heroscape, as well as giving more strategy.
-Not being able to summon after moving limits the planeswalkers' power, and is consistent with AotP rules.
-Only drawing and casting spells when your planeswalker is active makes more thematic sense, and gives incentive for them to be in the fighting (so as to not waste a turn doing nothing but drawing a spell).

Of course, I would probably amend the rule that prevents spells from affecting Heroscape units the way they do AotP creatures, just for compatibility's sake (and it's not like there's any great harm in being able to enchant Heroscape unique squads--they could use the power boost).

[chas]

In blended games I'm looking on the Planeswalkers as basically powerful magicians who are an expensive army card, and their AOTP units as their personal entourage that help magnify their power, whether shiny plastic elemental beings or solid plastic regular being who have been recruited by the PWs.

But they are not supposed to be the leaders of the whole blended army, or extend their powers out to the regular units in general, or treat Scape units ecasxtly as AOTP units. You can think of it as two factions coming together in a common cause. That's why I don't let Scape units be summoned or etc. Again, in my idea its AOTP being brought into the Scape world of Valhalla, not vice versa. So it all depends on what you are trying to do. I have a long and varied Scaping 'career,' but no background in MTG other than a few games played with free decks in a GenCon hotel room!

I can't do cool graphics, but I know my rules work in the games I've played so far. The Turn Sequence is the one we worked on together on the two sites, not mine alone.

[quozl]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

I cross-played with AotP for the first time today and am still trying to decide how balanced I think it is. My opponent used Gideon's army from the AotP starter set (500 points of units + 200 points of spells); I used a 700-point elf wizard army with Raelin and Haduc for defense, and got stomped.

That was a major stomping as the 200 points for spells is built into the planeswalker's cost.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by quozl

That was a major stomping as the 200 points for spells is built into the planeswalker's cost.

Do you have a source on a designer saying this? Otherwise, it's just conjecture, and I would disagree. chas' ruleset agrees with me, so I'm not alone in it.

The planeswalkers are more expensive than they should be for their stats and abilities alone, sure. However, I don't think those extra points are supposed to be the cost of a free spell deck. Even if the spell deck costs 200 points extra, playing a planeswalker has three significant advantages:

-Better units. The AotP squads and heroes are just plain better for cheaper than their Heroscape counterparts. Buying a big expensive planeswalker allows you to access them.

-Summoning. Advancing your entire army across the battlefield in only a few turns is no small advantage. A planeswalker can walk up in round 1, then dump both their squads onto the best positions on turn 1 of round 2.

-The opportunity to buy a spell deck. These spell decks are worth more than 200 points. A 10 point sorcery that heals 2 wounds, or a 25 point enchantment that adds +1 att and +1 def to a whole squad--these are far cheaper than they would be if you could just add them on to HS units by themselves. The additional cost is included in the planeswalker.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by chas

In blended games I'm looking on the Planeswalkers as basically powerful magicians who are an expensive army card, and their AOTP units as their personal entourage that help magnify their power, whether shiny plastic elemental beings or solid plastic regular being who have been recruited by the PWs.

But they are not supposed to be the leaders of the whole blended army, or extend their powers out to the regular units in general, or treat Scape units ecasxtly as AOTP units. You can think of it as two factions coming together in a common cause. That's why I don't let Scape units be summoned or etc. Again, in my idea its AOTP being brought into the Scape world of Valhalla, not vice versa. So it all depends on what you are trying to do. I have a long and varied Scaping 'career,' but no background in MTG other than a few games played with free decks in a GenCon hotel room!

I can't do cool graphics, but I know my rules work in the games I've played so far. The Turn Sequence is the one we worked on together on the two sites, not mine alone.

Well I'd like to be able to play AotP/HS hybrid games without requiring that both sides run a hybrid army. If all of Chandra's spells and abilities that damage "target creature" can't damage HS units, then she's screwed if I run a pure HS army against her.