Spartacus: coping with an impractical unit

[boogle]

Does anyone else think that heroscape should come out with a common squad of ranged gladiators in an attempt to rectify its mistake in creating Sparatucs? He is more exspensive than Taelord and though he is able to deal out significant damage to single adjacent units his soul special ability
begins to wilt in the realization that there are only two other gladiator units, both without range in heroscape thus far. My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere feel free to delete the thread i was tryign to find a discussion on him but gave up after a ten minute search.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by boogle

Does anyone else think that heroscape should come out with a common squad of ranged gladiators in an attempt to rectify its mistake in creating Sparatucs?

No, no one thinks that.

[btcable]

I think that it would have been the right choice to create a common squad of gladiators at the time rather than the two other unique gladiators, but now, it would seem also redundant to have that many gladiators available for play. I do feel a little disappointed that I'd have to spend so many points to take advantage of sparticus' special abilities.

[Aranas]

Originally Posted by btcable

I think that it would have been the right choice to create a common squad of gladiators at the time rather than the two other unique gladiators, but now, it would seem also redundant to have that many gladiators available for play. I do feel a little disappointed that I'd have to spend so many points to take advantage of sparticus' special abilities.

First post!
Welcome to the forum Btcable!


Aranas

[guido]

I would personally like to see a three man unique squad of gladiators who aren't ranged. I think anything more would upset the balance.

[Hero Hot Hatch]

In addition to a squad of Gladiators with range, the rule is too restrictive. It would had been better if Gladiator Inspiration stated "all your gladiators have to have order markers" instead of "all order markers for a round are placed on Gladiator Army Cards, and at least one on Spartacus...". The alternative would have allowed one to have the X order marker on one of the Gladiators, 1 and 2 on two of the other gladiators and 3 on an actual ranged unit, but that is still restrictive albeit more versatile than the actual rule. Or just use two Gladiators keep the X on one of them always, 1 (or 2 or 3) on the second Gladiator and the remaining two order markers for other units. I'm just dreaming.

Anyway, they are still O.K. and here comes a very long argument. Skip if you don't care to read.

The only alternative choice now is to keep Spartacus with marker X, and share the other 3 order markers between Crixus and Retiarius or all on one of them just to take down a tough hero or whatever other application. Crixus itself is tough to kill. He is in fact the toughest to kill unique hero under 120 hands down. No other unique's hero defense attempts to emulate the defense of the Stealth Dodge of the Kravs with the Defensive Agility of the WofAs. At least I can't recall right now, regardless of the fact that he would still get one wound.

Spartacus by itself is not worth his 200 points. However, an inspired Crixus with One Shield Defense, 6 move, 4 Defense Dice, 6 Attack and 5 lives is certainly worth more than his base 90 points. Of course, Spartacus value is more justifiable by the value he adds to the other Gladiators, the flexibility of not being adjacent to them while allowing them to move faster, attack more and defend more. Their respective base stats. are great already even without Gladiator Inspiration. Wouldn't you need to "invest" 80 in Finn and 80 in Thorgrim for 160 to get an extra attack and an extra defense, but still be required to be adjacent while they are still alive? Even Concan, who gives both, defense and attack, to knights and sentinels has to be adjacent and would die faster than Crixus. How many knights or sentinels can you practically keep adjacent to Concan given the fact that Concan lacks the bonding of human champions? Spartacus is bonding 100% of the time without being adjacent just by placing an order marker. There had to be a catch.

The following heroes fall short when compared to an inspired Crixus in survivability and attack effectiveness: Valguard, Sir Denrick, Sir Gilbert, Marcus DG, Alastair. Al those are worth 100 points or more; therefore, more than an uninspired Crixus. Of course, their value is in the bonding with soldiers and knights, but you would have to add the value of those other units.

For instance, Alastair double attack has a cost and can only be used once per round. You might also have to risk a leaving engagement attack to pull him out of danger if you are counting on him to influence the MacDirk Warriors. Alastair can fall fast, but you can always combine him strategically and tactically with Thorgrim's spirit (or choose Sir Denrick instead who will last longer). Again, you have to make sure that you have an exit stragegy for him in order for the MacDirk's killing potential to last, and they are worth as much as a 40 point squad of Blade Gruts without that killing potential (possibly less because they would lack disengagement and move slower). Let's assume that you want to boost Alastair's survivability with Thorgrim's spirit. That means that you have to sacrifice Thorgrim early on. That's 80 points and makes the Alastair with Thorgrim spirit cost 190. Why am I not surprised? You still get only one additional defense dice. You get no attack bonus, and Crixus might still last longer.

If an inspired Crixus is ever allowed to bond with a squad, the squad will have to have an obvious weakness just like the MacDirk Warriors have the low defense as their weakness in order to offset their awesome attack potential. You also have to combine the MacDirk warriors with either Raelin or Thorgrim to help them last longer. Why am I not surprised? I would not be surprised if a future javelin-throwing squad of gladiators has a range of just 5 or less. They will certainly have to have a weakness.

I know that 200 for Spartacus looks outrageous, but the alternatives that allow you to get similar results are not far from that price. Moreover, if Spartacus is the one last standing by holding him back most of the game you will not be losing 200 points, you already lost it when either Crixus or Retiarius fell earlier in the game as they are worth more than 90 when inspired. Crixus and Retiarus are worth their points as stand alone units without Spartacus, but not Spartacus without them. This is the opposite of what some people think. Still, if Spartacus is the last one standing, he will certainly do some damage. He will last longer and do more damage than Taelord for instance. Taelord would most likely be dead already.

I think that the Gladiators are O.K. They are misunderstood and they have their application and tactical options. When a gladiator squad with range is created, you'll face them a lot. No doubt.

[Who 'dat]

Nice post Hero! I too have always been a supporter of the gladiators as they are. Yes, it is difficult to get them into a competitive 400-500pt. army, but in larger battles, the three of them have always gone above and beyond their 380pt. total value at my house. An inspired Crixus especially has the defensive ability to move across a board and do damage to even ranged firgures like the Krav.

[Hero Hot Hatch]

With Spartacus' Inspiration both Crixus and Retiarus are worth at least 130 each (conservatively). Just think that to add just one more defense to Alastair, you need to invest 80 points as explained above. He would still be slower and attack less on average per turn than Crixus or Retiarus. You will not commit suicide right? Or wound him on purpose more than once or twice or three times maximum, right? Just remember that when Alastair is gone the value of the MacDirk Warriors goes to under 40 per squad. Again they would be worth less than a squad of Blade Gruts that has two attack, two defense, move faster and can disengage. The opposite thing happens to Spartacus. His value after Crixus and Retiarus are dead goes down to around 130. I mean, no other of the unique heroes listed above has 6 attack and they are all worth 100 or more.

[Rÿchean]

Originally Posted by boogle

...rectify its mistake in creating Sparatucs?

Even the very wise can not see all ends.

- Taelord came out before the Minions
- Swog and Krug came out after arrow gruts
- Blastatrons came out after the Gladiatrons
- Nakitas came out after the gorillanators
- Marcus came out before the 4th Mass

My Point? I don't view it as them having made a mistake. Give 'em time; I am sure they had something in mind for Sparty beyond what he is now.

[Hero Hot Hatch]

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

Even the very wise can not see all ends.

- Taelord came out before the Minions
- Swog and Krug came out after arrow gruts
- Blastatrons came out after the Gladiatrons
- Nakitas came out after the gorillanators
- Marcus came out before the 4th Mass

My Point? I don't view it as them having made a mistake. Give 'em time; I am sure they had something in mind for Sparty beyond what he is now.

You are rigth on the spot. I have no doubt that they have further plans for Sparty. There is always a bigger picture. However, you forgot to say that the Snipes came out in the same wave as Taelord, and they benefit greatly from him.

[boogle]

Just about everything everyone says makes sense, hopefully they come out with some sort of other unit that can be inspired by Spartacus. But for now all we can do is wait and admire the Spartacus figurine with heavy hearts.

[killercactus]

I tried this once -

Spartacus - 200
Crixus - 90
Thorgrim - 80
Eldgrim - 30
Knights of Weston - 70
Guilty - 30

The plan was to build Crixus up with the two Vikings, and then load him with Order Markers and kill everything, and Spartacus would clean up the mess. It looked OK on paper (not competitive, but at least fun), until my 6 defense Crixus (he had high ground) got hit with 3 skulls and whiffed. Spartacus held his own for a while, but he too fell.