Implications of DnD 'Scape on the tournament setting

[Mr Migraine]

Excusing the ambiguous title, what effect to you think the DnD set will have on the tournament scene? Specifically, if the Feral Troll should be as successful and popular in the metagame as he is in ordinary scenarios, the increasingly-popular Wannok (Wound) Glyph will lose quite a deal of power, it seems. Effectively, we have another Marcu-esque unit, except he’s (un)common and more reliable. This only recently popped into my mind, however I think it will likely become a larger issue once integrated games and tournaments get under way.

Or am I just blowing this out of proportion?

EDIT: Hmm, it seems there is already another thread on the same subject, according to one user. I'm pretty sure that isn't true, is it?

[Warlord Alpha]

Ehhh, I don't think calling him Marcu-esque is accurate. For less than 1/4 of the Troll's cost Marcu has only two less life (which isn't a lot when you are dealing with 8 life and 6 life for those relatively small point values). Plus, the troll isn't a filler. And the troll is used completely differently in terms of gameplay. Basically the only thing that they actually have in common is that if your opponent controls the wannok glyph, the troll/marcu is where the wound is going.

[Mr Migraine]

Originally Posted by Warlord Alpha

Ehhh, I don't think calling him Marcu-esque is accurate. For less than 1/4 of the Troll's cost Marcu has only two less life (which isn't a lot when you are dealing with 8 life and 6 life for those relatively small point values). The troll isn't a filler. The troll is used completely differently. Basically the only thing that they actually have in common is that if your opponent controls the wannok glyph, the troll/marcu is where the wound is going.

I meant to include more expensive, but other than that (and the other qualities that implies), I'd argue that he is Marcu-esque.

[Vilsara]

Never gone to a tournament, but I have a feel for the environment...

I see a big Tandros-Darrak combo surging into a few teams. Tandros is a great staller that draws attention, while Darrak attacks with high attack until Tandros is gone. Might work if you're feeling spicy.

Tandros alone might do some mighty work against Squadscape with Cleave, though it won't work if the enemy spreads out. Still, its an auto-wound- another strategy for people afraid of Deathreavers, I suppose.

Darrak will see use in all Dwarf armies, and will be a fair filler unit for general swarm armies with Sneak Attack. His use will probably rise and fall as people see more/less maps with Dungeon and Shadow in them.

Ana will be a great counter to Stinger Armies, or anything offensively Utgar (Krug is a noteworthy hero in conjunction with Arrow Gruts) more reliable healing than Kelda, and a defensive bonus to boot! Seeing as the Tourney scene has a lot of reliable Utgar units in it, she'll probably end up in a lot of armies. It's too bad her sculpt is terrible, though...

Eravan? He's already been established as terrible, apparently, but he'd be... fun to use!

Nah.

The Drow will probably abandon their leader if they're ever used in an army. Killing your own units is fun but risky, and won't cut it in a tourney scene. However, the Poison Weapons will be very useful if you're lucky on the roll, and will score the Drow a few more kills. However, like Darrak, I see their use going up and down depending on Hide in Darkness's effectiveness on tourney maps.

The troll isn't very Marcu-esque, IMO, but he's pretty effective against heroes from the looks of his stats (I haven't played with him at all, but that's the general thought around these parts). At the very least, he'll fill in some gaps if your army is anti-squad. Again, he and Tandros look to work well together.

Orthkurik is the one I see being in a lot of armies, but mostly because he's the only flying unit in the set. Given his high mobility and potentially high attack, he's a steal in drafting on maps with Shadow and Swamp. If either of those are on a map, Orthkurik will pretty much dominate. Even without it, he still has Acid Spray- a fairly nice Special Attack for hitting bunches. Since he's so similar but slightly less powerful than Zelrig, I'd rank him just below whatever position Zelrig holds on the tourney scale.

I don't see any of these units completely flipping the metagame on its side, but I can imagine that a lot of them will be squeezing into established tourney armies. At this point, many people will be steadfast with their best army, but some will be excited to try out a lot of these new units, even convincing the stubborn ones perchance they're as effective as I imagine them being. Of course, I'm probably wrong.

[jackryan4]

When the new expansions come out though and possibly/probably bond with these units who knows what will happen.

[Sarpedon]

Greetings.

From what I've seen so far, I don't think any of the D&D units are tournament-worthy. For each unit in the set, I can easily suggest a Classic Heroscape one that does the same or more for far less point and/or order marker cost. You may argue that some will be fun to play in tournaments, but that does not make them tournament-worthy as I believe most people understand the definition.

Even in a heavily swampy scenario with lots of shadows, I'd still prefer two squads of 4th Mass. over the new black dragon whose name I can't be bothered to learn. I guess the only (new/not rehashed) tournament-worthy thing about the D&D Masterset are the glyphs. They're the only things I really like about it, since the shadow tiles - if used as such - currently would benefit the units in the set that I won't be drafting for tournaments anyway.

Bear in mind that the set was presented as a dungeon stomp and meant to be able to stand on its own rather than be competitive with what came before.

[rym]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

From what I've seen so far, I don't think any of the D&D units are tournament-worthy. For each unit in the set, I can easily suggest a Classic Heroscape one that does the same or more for far less point and/or order marker cost.

Sarpedon, I agree with your assessment, but just for fun, am curious as to what your classic 'Scape replacement units for the D&D units would be?

[Vilsara]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

From what I've seen so far, I don't think any of the D&D units are tournament-worthy. For each unit in the set, I can easily suggest a Classic Heroscape one that does the same or more for far less point and/or order marker cost.

Actually, out of curiosity, could I see that list? I haven't been able to find similalarities between Classic and Dnd figures, though I'm probably missing something

And it'd be interesting to see this list, as I can see it sparking good discussion.

[Sarpedon]

Actually, guys, this is a great idea for a project-post! I'm going to write one up under my "100% Theoryscape" thread that I wrote months ago. I'm actually interested in the D&D figures now.

[Vilsara]

I'll be waiting for that, then

You'll probably get a medium sized post from me when you do post it.

[Jexik]

Of the stuff you guys have seen so far, I don't anticipate them being seen in standard 500 point/24-hex tournaments all that often. I've been thinking about the rankings on them for a bit, but I think I'll wait at least another month and until we see some results (or lack thereof) from tournaments.

Darrak will likely see play because he's a decent enough bargain and bonds with the Axegrinders. He'll be doubly useful if people use the Dungeon terrain or treasure glyphs, which I'm sure people would like to incorporate when they have the chance.

Tandros is a bit of an unknown for me. He's great against expensive melee squad figures (like Minions, who are popular in some areas, like Kansas City), and he's tough. He might see play in armies that already had Kaemon Awa.

Ana is weird. I saw some cool builds with Raelin, Skahen and Laglor in them. Syvarris is another possibility. I think you'll need to find a way to get use out of that healing power, which means ranged small/medium heroes... Kaemon or Sonlen might be good too. With rats or a more aggressive screen, like Dividers, I could see her being all right.

Feral Trolls- eh, not going to be big tourney players as it stands. They're excellent against Unique heroes, but so's Morsbane and Sudema. You just can't rely on this kind of a counterdraft unit in a tournament- they're much too matchup specific. If any Unique only events are held, or if more tournaments allow the draft, I could see them being quite good, however.

Othkurik is so-so. Right now, I'd put him a step behind Kaemon or Major Q10. Certainly good enough to see play, and potentially great with Rats or something, but not a figure I'm particularly scared of.

Erevan and Pelloth are probably the least likely units for blind kill-em-all tournaments, I think, but they're quite useful in drafted and scenario games in their native environment.

Forgot the Deepwyrm Drow. They're decent, and pretty quick. I see some teenage elf fans playing them. They're nasty against heroes and/or in a dungeon map though. I think if you cover up their weaknesses by pairing them with Krav or something, they could shock some people. I'm unlikely to try though, because I dislike any kind of elf.

I think the biggest impact this release will have on tournaments is on the maps. Maps using predominantly D&D sets will likely be smaller (promoting more melee) and use t-glyphs (promoting more hero use). Shadows will also offer an interesting opportunity to change the way maps play.

[killercactus]

I'm with Jexik - the terrain and the glyphs will have the largest impact on the tourney scene. Depending on how often Treasure Glyphs are used, heroes could become more popular. If that happens, Trolls, Drow, Sudema, Krug, etc. get a bit of a boost.

Darrak is probably the most tourney worthy unit right now. His bonding will get him into the Axegrinder games. He's a decent 60 point filler too, though I still think Zetacron is better for that.

There will be some weird Ana+ranged hero armies, but I don't think they'll be all that competitive.

Sarpedon says he'd rather have 4th Mass x2 than Othkurik. While that might be true, if your army only has 2 hexes left or needs a Special Attack, Othkurik suddenly looks better. Swamp and Shadow will just be a bonus in tournaments. He has mobility and range though, which could make him very strong with Deathreavers, especially considering his AoE style Special Attack. I like him as a choice with rat-podges. I agree though that if you have 10 more points, it's probably better to go with Q10.

Maybe the Troll will make a good cleanup figure if the rest of your army can deal with squads, but maybe not. No huge impact.

The Drow are like expensive Dividers that don't divide. If you're playing the Drow in a tournament instead of the Dividers, you'd better be expecting to see a lot of heroes (or be playing Pelloth, which I don't advise. He's bad.).

Tandros I don't like. I'd take Kaemon, Krug or Skahen before him if I wanted a 120 point hero. Maybe I can see him with Brunak running around and tying things up while Brunak wreaks havoc. That's about it.

Erevan won't see the light of day in a tourney unless he gets some other Eladrin help. He's on par with Shotgun Sullivan and James Murphy, who hardly ever see play.