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  #25  
Old June 8th, 2010, 03:56 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

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Originally Posted by jschild View Post
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Why should a person have a right to marry someone of the same gender?

~Aldin, eager to see this stated somehow
The same reason a person should have a right to marry someone of the opposite gender. Because they love them and want to spend the rest of their life with them.

Why should a person have a right to marry someone of the opposite gender?
But then shouldn't they have the right to marry someone who is already married but they love them and want to spend their live with them?
Personally, I don't give a fig about polygamy as long as underage kids aren't involved. However, it would require everyone to be consenting to the situation. If all parties are cool with that, what the hell business is it of mine? It rarely works outside of religion though, because people are jealous animals and don't share love very well like that.

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!
  #26  
Old June 8th, 2010, 03:58 PM
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Fencerjared Fencerjared is offline
 
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Why should a person have a right to marry someone of the same gender?

~Aldin, eager to see this stated somehow
The same reason a person should have a right to marry someone of the opposite gender. Because they love them and want to spend the rest of their life with them.

Why should a person have a right to marry someone of the opposite gender?
But then shouldn't they have the right to marry someone who is already married but they love them and want to spend their live with them?
Personally, I don't give a fig about polygamy as long as underage kids aren't involved. However, it would require everyone to be consenting to the situation. If all parties are cool with that, what the hell business is it of mine? It rarely works outside of religion though, because people are jealous animals and don't share love very well like that.
Yeah, I've actually got no issue with plural marriage if done between consenting adults. If you want to be married to 3 dudes and 4 chicks, go for it. Of course, you get exactly the same state benefits from marriage that I do, no more no less.

"While there is a lower class, I am in it, while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene V Debs
  #27  
Old June 8th, 2010, 03:59 PM
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Cavalier Cavalier is offline
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Why should a person have a right to marry someone of the same gender?

~Aldin, eager to see this stated somehow
The same reason a person should have a right to marry someone of the opposite gender. Because they love them and want to spend the rest of their life with them.

Why should a person have a right to marry someone of the opposite gender?
But then shouldn't they have the right to marry someone who is already married but they love them and want to spend their live with them?
Personally, I don't give a fig about polygamy as long as underage kids aren't involved. However, it would require everyone to be consenting to the situation. If all parties are cool with that, what the hell business is it of mine? It rarely works outside of religion though, because people are jealous animals and don't share love very well like that.
You, sir, are a true libertarian. Most people who support gay marriage would be opposed to this, which is why I throw it out in such a debate.
  #28  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:02 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Nope, I'm not even close to a true libertarian (except maybe in this area). But I don't have an issue with those things. I agree with Fencerjared, no more rights beyond what is currently given to married couples.

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!

Last edited by jschild; June 8th, 2010 at 04:06 PM. Reason: for butchering Fencerjared's name :p
  #29  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:03 PM
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Fencerjared Fencerjared is offline
 
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Nope, I'm not even close to a true libertarian (except maybe in this area). But I don't have an issue with those things. I agree with Fearjanced, no more rights beyond what is currently given to married couples.
Wow, I don't even want to know how that came out of my forum name.

"While there is a lower class, I am in it, while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene V Debs
  #30  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:08 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fencerjared View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Nope, I'm not even close to a true libertarian (except maybe in this area). But I don't have an issue with those things. I agree with Fearjanced, no more rights beyond what is currently given to married couples.
Wow, I don't even want to know how that came out of my forum name.
Eek! Sorry, this is what happens when you are typing on a forum instead of working and people can see you not working

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!
  #31  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:15 PM
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Riggler Riggler is offline
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Speaking of a libertarian perspective myself.

I am both for and against gay marriage.

Personally don't care if gay people are married or not. Don't care if there are poly-sects. Could care less.

What I DO care about is that there are government advantages to being married. All the reasons that gay activists say it is unfair they cannot get married -- as in government privledges or rights they cannot access -- are a reason for me to be opposed to it from a policy perspecitve.

It's not that I don't want gay couples to enjoy those government advantages. It's that I want those government advantages TAKEN AWAY from those with the married status. And have the government disadvantages taken away from those with single status.

The government should not reward nor punish individuals nor grant nor take away rights depending upon marital status. Once this is accomplished, gay marriage becomes a mute point. This is the solution not talked about in polite (mainstream/conservative or pundit) media. Perhaps it's something I should send over to John Stossel to bring up.

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  #32  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:18 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
Speaking of a libertarian perspective myself.

I am both for and against gay marriage.

Personally don't care if gay people are married or not. Don't care if there are poly-sects. Could care less.

What I DO care about is that there are government advantages to being married. All the reasons that gay activists say it is unfair they cannot get married -- as in government privledges or rights they cannot access -- are a reason for me to be opposed to it from a policy perspecitve.

It's not that I don't want gay couples to enjoy those government advantages. It's that I want those government advantages TAKEN AWAY from those with the married status. And have the government disadvantages taken away from those with single status.

The government should not reward nor punish individuals nor grant nor take away rights depending upon marital status. Once this is accomplished, gay marriage becomes a mute point. This is the solution not talked about in polite (mainstream/conservative or pundit) media. Perhaps it's something I should send over to John Stossel to bring up.
But unless you are pushing for that status to be removed from all married and single people, you are being against gay marriage. And last I've looked, I haven't seen any significant or even minor push by Libertarians to get those benefits and disadvantages removed.

Now through May 28th, the Louisville region is in desperate need of platelets - call the Red Cross if you are interested in donating!
  #33  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:23 PM
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Riggler Riggler is offline
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riggler View Post
Speaking of a libertarian perspective myself.

I am both for and against gay marriage.

Personally don't care if gay people are married or not. Don't care if there are poly-sects. Could care less.

What I DO care about is that there are government advantages to being married. All the reasons that gay activists say it is unfair they cannot get married -- as in government privledges or rights they cannot access -- are a reason for me to be opposed to it from a policy perspecitve.

It's not that I don't want gay couples to enjoy those government advantages. It's that I want those government advantages TAKEN AWAY from those with the married status. And have the government disadvantages taken away from those with single status.

The government should not reward nor punish individuals nor grant nor take away rights depending upon marital status. Once this is accomplished, gay marriage becomes a mute point. This is the solution not talked about in polite (mainstream/conservative or pundit) media. Perhaps it's something I should send over to John Stossel to bring up.
But unless you are pushing for that status to be removed from all married and single people, you are being against gay marriage. And last I've looked, I haven't seen any significant or even minor push by Libertarians to get those benefits and disadvantages removed.
That's the great thing about libertarians (I used a small "L" for a reason). They are like herding cats. I've never heard any libertarian (or anyone else) pushing for the removal of status from people either. I came up with it in my own brain as the solution to the gay marriage issue and I got there through libertarian/constitutional philosophy.

If the reason for the fuss on gay marraige is privledge or lackthereof, where does that privledge or lackthereof originate? The government. Why is there a lack of priveldge to gay's who want to marry? Because government has given privledge to those who are straight and marry and then disallow access to those who are gay. Do away with the prerequisiate of the privledge as being "married" and you do away with the controversy.

DUND is underestimated and under-rated.
  #34  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:26 PM
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fencerjared View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
What if I said that I don't believe love has anything to do with state sanctioned marriage?

~Aldin, who doesn't believe love has anything to do with state sanctioned marriage
You are right, love has nothing to do with state sanctioned marriage because it is not defined by law (thankfully!), and you never said anything about love previously so it shouldn't have been part of the argument. I assume your views on this matter are "informed" by your religious beliefs, but that hasn't been explicitly stated either by you, so we won't touch on that. We'll try from the beginning here: Why do you believe it is right to restrict people from marrying a living, consenting, same species, single member of the same gender of legal age? How is that really different than marrying someone of the opposite gender?
Well... I have two viewpoints on the topic that happen to coincide and I'm happy to use either perspective. AS was previously noted, marriage is two different things in a single label. It is both a state sanctioned partnership and it is a church sanctioned institution. Since no one is discussing whether or not churches should recognize partnerships that are in violation of their precepts, I was focusing on the state sanctioned part of it. Since we can agree that "love" isn't the reason the state sanctions marriage, can you tell me why you think the state sanctions marriage?

~Aldin, who thinks the state historically sanctions marriage as a way of encouraging stable communities that produce future taxpayers

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  #35  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:44 PM
Rich10 Rich10 is offline
 
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Well... I have two viewpoints on the topic that happen to coincide and I'm happy to use either perspective. AS was previously noted, marriage is two different things in a single label. It is both a state sanctioned partnership and it is a church sanctioned institution. Since no one is discussing whether or not churches should recognize partnerships that are in violation of their precepts, I was focusing on the state sanctioned part of it. Since we can agree that "love" isn't the reason the state sanctions marriage, can you tell me why you think the state sanctions marriage?

~Aldin, who thinks the state historically sanctions marriage as a way of encouraging stable communities that produce future taxpayers
I do not believe that I should tell any church what they should do. Private institutions can form their own rules.


From a state perspective, the recognition of marriage may have come as a way to encourage "stable communities that produce future taxpayers". Still, there are economic benefits to being married. Why do you feel that it is appropriate to discriminate against those who are in homosexual relationships?
  #36  
Old June 8th, 2010, 04:45 PM
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Relationships

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