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Old December 19th, 2018, 04:11 AM
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Cleon Cleon is offline
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Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

A couple months ago I did a Tier List for all units in the original game, you can find in the Competitive Armies Discussion Forum (here). Now I'm ready to post my first tier list for the VC units, and the game competitively with their inclusion and in formats where VC is legal.

The same criteria and standards that are in my original list are the same here. I decided to keep the same list and 'calibration' as my old one, despite that most VC units are a 5-7 or better, so that you can easily compare the two. VC units also bring the ranking of several units higher too, making more and more units out of the lower tiers (4-1). I didn't want recalibrate and respread the list again to compensate for this (basically meaning I didn't try to make the list have an even amount of higher and lower tier units), as I feel that will be misleading. Again, I want to be able to easily compare it to my one for the original game. If more and more VC units come out to the extent that then very few units are Tier 4 or lower, so be it.

Now, with all the VC units present, and because both my lists list each unit in a precise order (ranking within the same tier), I imagine just about every classic-scape unit moves at least slightly, regarding what the VC-legal metagame would be. For example, do the Cathar Spearman's presence make every melee unit's rating go slightly lower? But I didn't want to move and immense number of units slightly up or down, at least for this first list. As I think about it more, I'm willing to make changes. But again, for this first list especially, I want it to be very comparable to the original. There are some units that do move in power, of course, with the VC units present, like Omnicrons and Gorillinators, and those units (with direct synergy with the new units) I obviously moved/adjusted accordingly. But as far as from a metagame-esq. scope of view, I didn't really move much. At least for this first list I won't. It's also worth mentioning I don't think the metagame changes that drastically anyways.

Lastly, I haven't played every VC unit and there aren't as many tournaments/results with them as the original game (they're not allowed at GenCon), so I'm definitely willing to hear the feedback on them and make future changes.

Cleon's VC Unit Tier List

10:

1. Deathreavers
2. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
3. Major Q9
4. Isamu
5. Marro Warriors
6. Fen Hydra

9:

7. Marcu Esenwein
8. Sir Gilbert
9. 4th Massachusetts Line
10. Vulcanmech Incendiborgs*
11. Nilfheim
12. Knights of Weston
13. Heavy Gruts
14. Grimnak
15. Krav Maga Agents
16. Quahon*
17. Me-Burq-Sa
18. Major Q10
19. Marro Stingers
20. 10th Regiment of Foot
21. Phantom Knights
22. Cathar Spearmen*
23. Greenscale Warriors
24. Braxas
25. Laglor
26. Kaemon Awa
27. Brute Gruts*
28. Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider
29. Blastatrons
30. Gladiatrons

8:

31. The Varja*
32. Rygarn*
33. Deathchasers of Thesk
34. Axegrinders of the Burning Forge
35. Alastair MacDirk
36. Marcus Decimus Gallus
37. Mogrimm Forgehammer
38. Gothlok*
39. Augamo*
40. Black Wyrmling
41. Zetacron
42. Airborne Elite
43. Sgt. Drake Alexander SotM
44. Darrak Ambershard
45. Azurite Warlord*
46. Ulfrid Hornwrangler*
47. Roman Legionnaires
48. Zelrig
49. Microcorp Troopers*
50. Agent Skahen
51. Cyprien Esenwein
52. Heracles*
53. Krug
54. B-11 Resistance Corps*
55. Red Wyrmling
56. Eltahale
57. Havech Eradicators*
58. Varkaanan Greyspears*
59. Marrden Nagrubs
60. Eldgrim the Viking Champion
61. Mezzodemon Warmongers
62. Arktos*
63. Bahadur*

7:

64. Nhah Scirh Cultists*
65. Racheim*
66. Ne-Gok-Sa
67. Omegacron*
68. Omnicron Repulsors
69. Sir Orrick*
70. Swog Rider
71. Marro Dividers
72. Varkaanan Swiftfangs*
73. Tor-Kul-Na
74. Minions of Utgar
75. Sentinels of Jandar
76. Finn the Viking Champion
77. Arrow Gruts
78. Deathcommander Mark 3*
79. Omnicron Snipers
80. Guilty McCreech
81. Dreadgul Raiders*
82. Heirloom
83. Charos
84. Blade Gruts
85. Fyorlag Spiders
86. Kon-Tar-Na*
87. Morgoloth*
88. Moltenclaw
89. Goblin Cutters
90. Sentinels of Grax*
91. Frost Giant of Morh
92. Sgt. Drake Alexander RotV
93. Thorgrim the Viking Champion
94. Sacred Band
95. Samuel Brown
96. Hrognak*
97. Brave Arrow
98. Mohicans of the River Tribe
99. Migol Ironwill
100. Varkaanan Quickblades*
101. Fire Elemental
102. Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior
103. Manauvi*
104. Mimring
105. Sir Hawthorne
106. Pel the Hill Giant*
107. Ogre Pulverizer
108. Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep*
109. Warforged Soldiers
110. Varkaanan Darkclaws*
111. Haduc*
112. Sonya Esenwein
113. Major J15*
114. Locksley*
115. White Wyrmling
116. Syvarris
117. Capt. John Varan*

6:

118. Ashigaru Harquebus
119. Count Raymond*
120. Calibrax the Kyrie Warrior*
121. Microcorp Agents
122. Nakita Agents
123. 8th Infantry Pathfinder*
124. Ashi-Dhulu*
125. Kira Jax*
126. Venoc Vipers
127. Venoc Warlord
128. Zettian Infantry*
129. Deathwalker 9000
130. Nottingham Brigand*
131. Arkmer
132. Othkurik the Black Dragon
133. Deathwalker 8000
134. Marro Drones
135. Jotun
136. Skull Demon*
137. Ornak
138. Mok*
139. Knights of the Blackgaard*
140. Crixus
141. Capuan Gladiators
142. Spartacus
143. Quorik Warwitch*
144. Taelord the Kyrie Warrior
145. Kyntella Gwyn
146. Jorhdawn
147. Chardris
148. Ulginesh
149. Tornak
150. Elaria the Pale*
151. Valguard
152. Warriors of Ashra
153. 20th Maine Volunteers*
154. Su-Bak-Na
155. Zaeus*
156. Asterios*
157. Armoc Vipers
158. Brunak
159. Beorn Boltcutter*
160. 53rd North Carolina Sharpshooters*
161. MacDirk Warriors
162. Zombies of Morindan
163. Zombie Hulk*
164. Gorillitroopers*
165. Ogre Warhulk
166. Priscus*
167. Ebon Armor*
168. Teeth of the Makwa*
169. Protectors of Ullar
170. Xualtiaca Fire Ants*
171. Nicholas Esenwein*
172. Master Lao Xin*
173. Concan the Kyrie Warrior
174. Tagawa Samurai
175. Tomoe Gozen*
176. Van Nessing*
177. Shurrak
178. Rhogar Dragonspine
179. Horned Skull Brutes
180. Durgeth Ravagers*
181. Wyvern
182. Marrden Hounds
183. Executioner 616*

5:

184. Hoplitron*
185. Varkaanan Blade Dancers*
186. Blue Wyrmling
187. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior SotM
188. Maltis Tez*
189. Sonlen
190. Kelda the Kyrie Warrior
191. Siiv*
192. Izumi Samurai
193. Tyrian the Kyrie Warrior*
194. Aubrien Archers
195. Tomb Skeleton Archers*
196. Yi Feng*
197. Shaolin Monks
198. Zettian Deathwings*
199. Tarn Viking Warriors
200. Iron Golem
201. Skeletons of Annellintia*
202. Iskra Esenwein
203. Myrddin*
204. Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan
205. James Murphy
206. Kursus*
207. Grigor & Rogirg*
208. Red Ants of Aunstrom*
209. Anubian Wolves
210. Sir Denrick
211. Patrick Ferguson*
212. Theracus
213. Zogross Hardscale*
214. Kato Katsuro
215. Kurrok the Elementalist
216. Otonashi
217. Command Courier*
218. Seleena*
219. Eilan Sidhe*
220. Ice Troll Berserker
221. Achillean Gladiatrix*
222. Bramcephys*
223. Kozuke Samurai
224. Tandros Kreel
225. Jarek Guy*
226. Warden 816
227. Quasatch Hunters
228. Chen Tang*
229. Retiarius
230. Torin
231. Granite Guardians
232. Brimstone*
233. Tul-Bak-Ra
234. Beakface Sneaks*
235. Master of the Hunt
236. Siege
237. Viceron the Blood Knight*
238. M-43 Resistance Fighters*
239. Deepwyrm Drow
240. Sir Dupuis
241. Emperor Andask*
242. Arashara Goshiri*
243. Morsbane
244. Deathstalkers
245. Zettian Guards
246. Wo-Sa-Ga
247. Urk*
248. Death Knights of Valkrill
249. Tagawa Samurai Archers
250. Prince al'Kahora*
251. Martial La Hire*
252. Zhen Yuan*
253. Wolves of Badru
254. Mindflayer Mastermind
255. Water Elemental

4:

256. Gorillinators
257. Parmenio
258. Crypt Guardian*
259. Ana Karithon
260. Ashigaru Yari
261. Marro Gnids*
262. Elite Onyx Vipers
263. Akumaken*
264. Drow Chainfighter
265. Dumutef Guard
266. Dzu-Teh
267. Air Elemental
268. Tomb Skeletons*
269. Gurei-Oni
270. Ninjas of the Northern Wind
271. Kantono Daishi*
272. Earth Elemental
273. Agent Carr
274. Josie Whistletop*
275. Sharwin Wildborn
276. Bloodburst Thrall*
277. Estivara
278. Mika Connour
279. Sudema
280. Runa the Kyrie Warrior
281. Werewolf Lord

3:

282. Marro Hive
283. Cormin the Dark*
284. Sujoah
285. Acolarh
286. Major X17
287. Rechets of Bogdan
288. Kumiko
289. Dund
290. Evar Scarcarver
291. Deathstrike Thrall*
292. Greater Ice Elemental
293. Kee-Mo-Shi
294. Emirroon
295. Shades of Bleakewoode
296. Preyblood Thrall*
297. Sahuagin Raider
298. Cxurg'gyath*
299. Master Win Chiu Woo
300. Marro Drudge

2:

301. Darkprowl Thrall*
302. Garrett Burns*
303. The Einar Imperium
304. Deadeye Dan
305. Templar Cavalry
306. Roman Archers
307. Empress Kiova
308. Khosumet the Darklord
309. Erevan Sunshadow
310. Moriko
311. Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
312. Feral Troll
313. Deathwalker 7000

1:

314. Grok Riders
315. Brandis Skyhunter
316. Shiori
317. Obsidian Guards
318. Pelloth
319. Hatamoto Taro

Descriptions: (in order of release)

Zombie Hulk - 6. I think he's about as good as the Zombies, just a hero version you can add to your build. I don't think the Ravagers make him any better.
Zettian Infantry - 6. They make every Utgar Soulborg better and turn them into an army of their own. They have short range (without Deathwalker 9000) and low attack, but (potentially) three attacks of 2 plus a powerful long-range attack from a hero in one turn is solid.
Haduc - 7. Strengthens the Elf Wizard build like crazy and a fine substitute for Raelin as well. And when you run both, the build is incredibly hard to penetrate. Quite powerful at 570-600pt. army limits. Elven Supremacy is helpful too, and opens doors with Aubriens and Sonlen too. He's 100pt. which is difficult to squeeze both him and Raelin, but a solid figure all round and the best elf wizard no question.
Kira Jax - 6. A nice addition to the scout build (and with the Makwas), and to the Mariedian army too (even though that one is so-so). She's kind of like a mini Me-Burq-Sa. Also just a good 30pt. filler too, outside of those armies. There's nothing bad about this figure, and can be great facing certain defensive abilities. I like her.
Nicholas Esenwein - 6. A figure that pulls the Thrall army together...but the Thrall army's pretty terrible. But, he's a good figure in his own right. Kind of like a poor man's Cyprien. Works with the Skeletons of Annillintia as well, which is a decently good army (better than the thralls for sure). But I feel like whatever army you're putting him in, he's gonna do pretty well; he's a fast 4/4 flyer with overextended attack that can heal, and that's always going to be pretty good, went with a low-6. Just wish the Thralls were better...
Omegacron - 7. Ties the Omnicron army together and makes both the Snipers and Repulsors a tier better. Solid stats and figure on his own, too, you're definitely going to be doing damage with him. I think Omegacron+Repulsors x2 or 3 is the go-to, and is a great start to any army, whether you're going to add snipers or zetacron or not (thus why I raised the Repulsors higher). And the Snipers still work well too of course, just a tad pricey (I wouldn't leave running x1 Snipers with him out of the question). I can also see some Beorn potential too. All in all a sweet figure and addition to the game.
Capt. John Varan - 7. Really strong figure with the Airborne Elite, a good option with the 8th Infantry, and just a useful figure on his own (/in other builds with Jandar humans). Battle Valor SA can get pretty nuts if you can manage to keep him on the table for awhile, and especially in endgame scenarios. Good with healing, too. And the more strong Jandar Unique Squads that are human that come out (I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities), the more he shines. Was considering a high-6 for him but with everything that I've mentioned I think he deserves to squeak into the 7's. Maybe even higher, considering how good he is with the AE.
Zaeus - 6. Makes the Gorillinators a hell of a lot more playable, and a good bonding option with the Gorillitroopers. I see a lot of potential in this figure's Special Attack, which is why I placed him a bit higher than the troopers in Tier 6. He's a bit expensive but with 4/4 stats and that 7-range special, he'll do good damage.
Zogross Hardscale - 5. Good stats, good abilities, good squads that he bonds with, but he's at an awkward price that's a hard fit when army building with him, my brain never seems to really 'want' him when trying to build armies with him. It would be nice if he was like ~80pt., but 120pt. keeps him from being desirable. I'd never run him over Mogrimm with Romans, the Greenscales have a million better options with dragons, and I don't think Armocs want him that much. Not a bad figure, but I still feel he's underwhelming at 120.
Van Nessing - 6. I didn't like him at first, thought he was just thematic and an Undead counter, but he basically has a free overextended attack (no damage), and with solid stats and a ranged special option, that's enough to be a 6 I think. If great Undead or Lycanthrope/Hybrid are released in the future, his value bumps up.
Marro Gnids - 4. Their ability's good when it works, but they're really only effective on low defense heroes. And chances are good that you'll run into matchups where your opponent only has squads and high-def heroes, rendering them pretty useless being 2/2s. I think the Red Ants are better, and 10pt. cheaper. They do have 7 move though, which makes them interesting. Maybe running just one squad of them can be useful. They still are 2/2's though. I went with a high-4.
Preyblood Thrall - 3. The Thrall army's bad. They're 30pt. figures that have a theme of killing themselves, and are only a 3-squad 25% of the time, and another 25% of the time they're single move heroes. Really wish their ability had higher rolls of turns yielding activations with 4, 5, 6, or maybe even more thralls - I think that would have made them way more intriguing. The Preyblood I put as the 3rd best, he only works on wounded heroes but he has some endgame possibilities. I put him right next to the Sahuagin Raider, as I think they're very similar. Preyblood is slightly better I think. Maybe down the road there will be a figure that makes the Thralls a lot better.
M-43 Resistance Fighters - 5. They remind me a lot of the TSA, thus the same rank. I think they're a bit better though. Maybe in the future the Mariedian build will be better, but for right now it's a bit underwhelming.
Varkaanan Blade Dancers - 5. On the expensive side for a melee 3-squad with 3 def but they still have 4 attack, which is definitely good. They're abilities are on the situational side but are good in a clogged board, which isn't that uncommon. I like them with rats. I don't know if I'll ever see them rise to a 6, and if so they won't ever be higher than the HSB, but they aren't bad figures. I went with a high Tier 5.
Ulfrid Hornwrangler - 8. Just a great figure. Shields of Valor + 3 def + 5 life makes him beefy, and Grim Determination SA makes him a scary threat for many heroes. Pretty useful against squad figures in pesky positions as well. Great figure for the Dwarf army, and with the 4th Mass. And not bad even if you want to run him outside of those.
Vulcanmech Incendiborgs - 9. Basically Q9 as a squad. I don't think they're quite as strong, but still incredibly good figures. I really don't see a situation where they'll be bad. Like the Mezzo's, their position-holding can become unreal. They have Viking/Wolf Spirit options, which I think is very notable with every unique squad. I was going back and forth putting them above or below Nilf, they can cover more of the board and don't get stunted if they're engaged like Nilf can with his Special Attack, so I went with above. I can see either though. All in all just awesome figures. Also you can always run both Q9 and them together too, which is nuts.
Command Courier - 5. Interesting unit. They're a good shield for your Vydar heroes. I didn't think much of them at first but I remember playing Major Q23 when he used them, and the Command Couriers worked well with Skahen and Heirloom, and were annoying to face. Not a huge threat but a neat figure for Vydar heroes.
Havech Eradicators - 8. Super Stingers, essentially. Stingers are better, but the Eradicators have the potential to cause tremendous damage to your opponent at 30pt. a pop. They're risky, but their damage potential warrants the risk and price, I'd say. If you play carefully and smartly, you can get more and more safe melee attacks out of them (6 move is always useful). One of my favorite units to come out of the VC, and I bet they're Hendal's favorite VC unit ever
Deathstrike Thrall - 3. It's nice to have the guarenteed 6-attack, and I think that coupled with the 6 move makes them slightly better than the Preyblood Thrall (also, they don't rely on wounded heroes), but they still kill themselves lol. Again, thralls are bad.
Skeletons of Annellintia - 5. 105pt. is an expensive price for a slow 3/3 four squad, but you're more buying six of them on average for 105pt. with their Necromancy/Reanimation abilities. Undead Legion helps them with board control efficiency despite their 4 move, and accelerates the power of reanimating them. But I think they're pretty matchup dependent and can get overrun by more efficient armies and units. I wish they worked with Marcu, but they do make Iskra and Sonya more likeable, in case you don't want to spend the 150/140 on Cyprien/Nicholas, or in the case that you do, too. All in all I think their power level is in Tier 5.
Skull Demon - 6. A solid unit in and out. They bump the Death Knights up to a 5, and I think Death Knights + Skull Demon is a pretty good 3-squad at 125pt. Great against a lot of common squads, especially once you make it to height, and I think that helps the Death Knights a lot because they struggle with board control. A good hero for your last 65pt. to be filled outside of Death Knights / Valkrill builds too. More and more Valkrill units are going to be released through VC, and he always has potential with future melee squads for Valkrill.
Arashara Goshiri - 5. Too expensive for my liking. I can't help but feel like this figure is begging to be priced at 150pt. so that you can fit another squad of Romans/Greeks. Her ability is powerful, but is D20 dependent which is always annoying (cough cough Saylind cough cough). It's very hard for me to justify spending 200pt. on a figure that's only 3 def and 5 life. Was considering a 4, but I went with a low-5, since Romans and Greeks are cheap. In higher point games maybe she's better, but still. I really don't think her ability warrants the points.
Elaria the Pale - 6. Didn't like her at first but she's a solid option to bond with for the Nottingham Brigand, which always gives you an attack of 3 from good range. An annoying figure for melee squads to deal with, too. Just a good bundle of things for 60pt., especially now that the Nottingham Brigand are here.
Martial La Hire - 5. I don't like this figure very much, I think they could have done more with him. But he's a solid bunch of stats with a (potential) double attack for 70pt., so I didn't feel I should rate him below a 5. Maybe there will be synergy with him and something else in the future.
Myrddin - 5. Has a lot of interesting uses - boosts every D20 figure and has an attack that hits many figures. With the 2 def, I don't think these abilities push him above a 5 though. Pretty good option with the 4th.
Tyrian the Kyrie Warrior - 5. Very good offensive assassin potential, very fragile defensively. Good endgame hero for sure. Annoying for melee to deal with, but if you can get to him he's only 2 def 4 life. Even though he's 110pt. it's hard to rate a unit low that has such offensive power, especially if you need to destroy a unit(s) that's in a strong position that you can get height on. Is it worth the 110pt. if you can destroy Raelin in the process, or close to it? Seems so. I dunno, he's fragile, but I think the combination of his stats/abilities shouldn't be ignored.
Priscus - 6. A good hero for the gladiator army. Not as good as Crixus, better than Retiarius. I think he's a pretty good substitute for Crixus at 510pt if you want him. But, still, the Gladiator army doesn't have points to play around much. Priscus does bring an interesting option to the table, though - change up your order markers from placing 1-3 on Capuans and place one of them on Priscus so you can have a very strong attack turn with the Capuans if you can position it right with Priscus boosting attacks - as well as a special attack. A strong army at 600pt. when you can have both heroes, especially at lower fig/hex units. Not as strong as Crixus and the rest of the build, but I think he's still in the 6 realm.
Beakface Sneaks - 5. I had these guys at a 4 at first, but they're pretty good for only 30pt., 15 a piece. They're decent ranged-squad killers, being that they have 6 move, 3 attack, and 5 defense with Evasive 3. Still only a 2-squad though, which, even with Flocking, is a bit problematic.
Cxurg'gyath - 3. Very similar to Master Woo - you don't have the points for the units he works with, and is better as a stand alone hero, which still isn't very good. Which is better for 140pt.? I went with Cxurg but I can see either. (looking back at this now, I forgot that Woo now has Lao Xin, so I doubt that Woo is worse. But I'll remember that when I do my first update for this list)
Deathcommander Mark 3 - 7. Makes so many units better, regardless that his bonding requires engagement. Strong with the Zettian Infantry, being that his Special Attack is quite good. The best Soulborg hero for Utgar thus far.
Mok - 6. I've played this figure quite a bit and he usually pulls his weight. He's expensive, with two Axegrinders on him he's 255pt., but getting continuous 7 attack swing and two shots of 3 is fearsome damage once you get it going. I wouldn't run Shieldsmiths with him as they're expensive - 26.6pt. each, Axegrinders are the way to go. I see problems in matchups where you can't engage with him so I kept him at a 6, but Mok+Axegrinders x4 is a solid build. If cheaper dwarf commons are released in the future he'll rise.
Morgoloth - 7. Just a tough combination of stats and gives benefits to many things. Makes the Wolves of Badru better, and is a nice hero to add to your Mezzo army. Similar to the Frost Giant, a strong hero that will do a good amount of damage pretty much always. Morgoloth has the guaranteed double attack though, which is why I put him higher, but both are roughly as strong. I'm interested to see what demons and small vermin are released in the future.
Quahon - 9. The second best unit to come out of the VC in my opinion, Quahon is like another Nilfheim. Great with Greenscales, Spiders, and on her own, Quahon is pretty much never bad. I think Nilf's +1 move and defense are better than her +1 life, and Nilf's special will cover more spread out units (relative to each other) which I think is better than Lightning Breath long distances, however you can Lightning Breath regardless of engagement so I can see an argument for both SA's. I think her power is somewhere between Nilfheim and Q10. All in all the second best dragon and a very strong figure.
Racheim - 7. I like this figure quite a bit. Really strong endgame hero, and will be strong outside of endgame, too. He's kind of like a flying Hydra that can shoot. Only 4 defense (compared to the Hydra) but will have triple attack at all times. Strong possibilities with Finn and Bahadur. I kept him at a safe 7, and at the top of 7 with the Cultists, as I haven't played with this figure yet, but I really don't see him any lower, only (potentially) higher.
Hoplitron - 5. Pretty good addition to a Tron army, and a good figure to run with J15 or 616. Also makes X17 not as useless, and even makes Deathwalker 7000 better (though still a questionable choice for your army ). Originally I had him at mid-5, but I think he's a pretty good option for a lot of things so I bumped him up to the top of 5's.
Brimstone - 5. He's the worst dragon in my opinion as his ability is hard to use effectively. But, every dragon has Greenscales and Greenscales make him at least a decent bonding team. For that, I wouldn't put him any lower than a 5.
Kantono Diashi - 4. At first I thought he fixed the ninjas (or at least similar to how Lao Xin fixes the monks), but you can't attack with him before you bond (not that 2 attack is all that great anyways) and you're still including a lot of bad figures in your army. He's ok with Otonashi and Isamu, but the other ninjas still aren't good enough to run a lot of them (and this dude's 120pt.). He has counter strike but your opponent doesn't have to attack him, the other ninjas are fragile enough. I don't see him any better than where the NotNW's power is, or when you run NotNW alone.
Cathar Spearmen - 9. Incredibly strong anti-melee figures, and strong figures against other things, with them having reach in all. They're slow, but reach makes up for it, and you can always run either Marcus or Raymond (or both!). They remind me of the PK's but for melee, both are great in their counter-matchups and still work pretty well outside of them, which is why I put these guys right next to them in rank. Very versatile, too (like the PK's), you can run them in a Marcus/soldier build, run them with a range counter or add them as a melee counter, or just run a bunch of them to have a bunch of them. Quite a strong squad all-round.
Eilan Sidhe - 5. I don't really know how to rank these guys lol. They're like an 8 or 9 on a map with trees, and like a 2 on maps without them. I went with a 5? The one thing they do have going for them is Road is the most common map type and Jungle maps are probably the second most, definitely more common than Lava and Snow.
Dreadgul Raiders - 7. One of my favorite units to come out of the VC, I just love their army, super offensive. They make Jotun better, Valguard slightly better, and Guilty much better. They have Pel now, too. I like them a lot with Jotun because you can threaten with Jotun, and then have a sneak attack of 4 dice with these guys. Outside of Jotun gives you much more points to work with, of course. Berserker charge makes them very interesting, I think it makes up for their generally low numbers, gets them to height. You can also run just a couple squads and Guilty, too, and use their 4-attack option more. I love these guys.
Tomb Skeletons - 4. They're slow and pretty weak. I do like the fact that they still get 3 defense against ranged figures when adjacent, though. Pretty decent with rats actually. It's hard for me to rate a 3 squad with 3 attack that's only 40pt. lower than a 4. Maybe if the Guard army gets something nasty in the future they'll shine.
Microcorp Troopers - 8. You get a good amount of things for only 80pt.; each turn you'll likely get the three shots of 2 and one shot of 4 I'd say, you can go more places other than just height. Even better on snow maps (w/ slippery/heavy) as a bonus. Another great cookie cutter range squad added to the game.
Nhah Scirh Cultists - 7. Maybe my favorite VC unit, these guys are so cool. Really good against SA matchups, and really really good against dragons. And I don't think they're bad outside those matchups - a 3/3 four squad with 6 move with (almost) disengage - that's not bad at all for 80pt. An actual good counter to Q9+rats, too. I put them at the top of 7, they might be an 8 actually.
Augamo - 8. Speaking of an actual good counter to Q9+rats, here's Augamo. haha. Seriously though, he's a serious threat for that matchup (and similar ones), which I think is great for the game. A little bit slow against a horde of commons, but has a double attack of 4 at all times as well as a powerful swing of 6 if needed. Ramming can mess up a lot of melee setups, too. Just a beast of a figure that actually enjoys the nightmare that is Q9+rats+Raelin.
Count Raymond - 6. A good addition to the Cathar army, but not detrimentally necessary. Has solid stats as a stand alone hero. You can run him with other Einar units, but I think you should really only use him with the Cathar. I put him as a 6....not a required unit, but still, the Cathar are so good, I put him at the top of the 6's.
Kursus - 5. Pretty good suicide unit. Doesn't really do anything for the Primadon build, not a bad option to add to an army for its last 55pt though. I think the Zettian Deathwings are better, but I did put them both in the same tier. He has the potential to kill a lot, but the 3 def 3 life keeps him at a 5.
Siiv - 5. Not a bad cheap assassin figure. Good on a locked down board with expensive small/medium commons. Reminds me of Theracus, being that he's 40pt. Siiv will do more damage I think though so I put him a bit higher. Still in the same tier as Theracus.
Tomoe Gozen - 6. She makes the three samurai squads each better, so I gave them each a bump. I think Izumi and Kozuke are still in Tier 5, but I put the Tagawas up to a 6. I think Tagawa+Gozen is the way to go (then add other things to your army besides samurai), it's a pretty strong combo, and I rate it as a 6. The other two are the same deal (I think you should run one squad + Gozen, not a fleet of samurai with Gozen), but I don't think those combinations are a 6.
B-11 Resistance Corps - 8. On paper I didn't think they were nearly as powerful, but after I played them, they're a great unique range squad. Starts out as 4 pings like MW/Q10, then turns into Krav/Q9, then turns into Kaemon/Q10, then turns into a 5/5 endgame-esq hero. The trick is to play as safe as possible so you can go through each step of their cycle and abuse it as opposed to running in with them. But I guess you could say that with any unique ranged squad. Quite strong with Viking/Wolf spirits. All in all a nice alternative to the AE for your last 110pt.
Grigor & Rogirg - 5. I don't see any reason why you would choose this guy(s) over Krug+50pt., but still, not a bad figure with the Arrow Gruts. I think he's a stronger option than the Ice Troll but still close in power (same tier). Good stats though, whether or not the abilities are working for you. You could always run both Krug and him I suppose.
Varkaanan Quickblades - 7. The third best of the Varkaanan (unique) squads in my opinion. Only a 3-squad, but they do have a SA which is nice for the army. Vaulting gives them a nice and brutal sneak attack(s) potential, and can help the army in a difficult terrain map.
Varkaanan Swiftfangs - 7. I think they're the best of the melee Varkaanan squads, being that they're the cheapest and you get 4 of them. First Strike can do wonders in a lot of setups and your opponent probably won't ready themselves for it at all times. They're the go-to squad to run Bahadur+a Varkaanan squad outside of the Varkaanan army, to abuse Bahadur's spirit on something like the Hydra. For that I think they're above the other two melee ones.
Varkaanan Darkclaws - 7. I think they're the worst of the 4 squads, but still a 7. Great on Dungeon maps and in melee heavy matchups. They're expensive and a 3-squad, but if you can fit them they're still a solid option. Maybe they shine more in a ~600pt. setting.
Varkaanan Greyspears - 8. The best squad of the Varkaanan army. It's really good to get shots of 3, or 4 with Arktos backing you, at (almost) all times. I think the Varkaanan army's power is about a 7.5, which explains why I have these guys and two of the heros in the 8 tier, and the others in the 7 tier. But every Varkaanan heavy army should have the Greyspears. Also not bad as a paired squad with Arktos if you want to run Arktos outside a bunch of Varkaanan, and abuse his spirit on a solid ranged unique squad (Krav, B-11, etc.) or hero, and build the rest of the army around that (i.e. - add rats).
Arktos - 8. Probably the best of the Varkaanan heroes (it's either him or Bahadur) because he makes the Greyspears even better. Also the cheapest which makes army building easier. I really like his potential outside of the Varkaanan army - giving powerful figures like Krav or AE or Omegacron +2 range gets nasty, which is a big reason I kept him in the 8 Tier (bottom) rather than the top of 7. I think if you're running a lot of Varkaanan (including Arktos) in your army, you should always try to fit the MW, because 8-range MW is very very good.
Bahadur - 8. The strongest Varkaanan hero in their own regard, I go back and forth between him and Arktos which I think is better in rank. Similar to Arktos, I really like his potential outside of the Varkaanan build as a Spirit for the Hydra or Brute Gruts. You can run him alone in a spirit-tactic army too, moreso than Finn (without a bonding squad), because Bahadur's actually a threat your opponent has to deal with, which Finn isn't nearly as much. If you're running Bahadur in a Varkaanan heavy build (and not Arktos), I think trying to squeeze the Brute Gruts into your army is the way to go. Even Tarns aren't bad. Same reasoning why I put him at an 8 as Arktos.
Manauvi - 7. The worst of the three Varkaanan heroes, but still a good figure, and option for the Varkaanans. (speaking outside of the Varkaanan build as a suicide-spirit hero: ) Like Bahadur, you have to deal with this figure; Charging Assault+Battle Frenzy+5 attack is very dangerous. His spirit is the worst of the three, but still, you can't say a 7 move Hydra or squad of Brute Gruts isn't scary. Tarn with 6 move is pretty interesting with their berserker charge, though not nearly as fearsome as the other two. 7 move Sentinels of Grax is pretty sweet too.
Quorik Warwitch - 6. Really annoying for melee matchups to deal with, and pretty good outside of it too. Only 2 defense but with flying you'll usually have height. Good with rats, and as an endgame figure as well. Just overall a solid figure. I don't think the Beakface Sneaks really do much for her.
Sir Orrick - 7. A good option for the Knight (or MacDirks) army, he's a fast hero that will probably give you a 4 attack (you'll likely reach height) swing. Not bad with Mass when you can't fit Sam Brown, either. Good figure for only 50 points.
Azurite Warlord - 8. He makes the Armocs waaay better. Is a great option for them and for the Romans, and a great hero on his own too. Definitely likes the glyph of Kelda, and other healing might be an option worth investing points in. Whatever army you're running, the Azurite Warlord is a dangerous figure, no question.
Akumaken - 4. He's okay once you get his Demonblade going, but you need to get kills first. Decent against melee but overall a pretty weak single attack melee hero that needs to kill things to become something good, and that takes turns and time. If he had something to combat range or help him move to engage range he'd be better. Not a horrible figure though.
Ebon Armor - 6. They're expensive at first glance but you're likely going to get 8+ of them throughout the game, so they're more like 15pt. each. I think they're good with rats (w/ unique humans obviously); send them and a bunch of rats out first, let them die, then roll with your unique humans for the rest of the game while they come back and get additional attacks. Also gives you a clear reason to run Isamu+Otonashi over Marcu.
8th Infantry Pathfinder - 6. A nice ranged squad that they turn into, despite you needing Unique Jandar Soldiers to function. All the Unique Jandar Soldiers are good though, so that's nice. A bit pricey but their 4 attack at 6 range makes up for it. They have limitations so I kept them at 6 rather than a 7, but that 4 attack is very notable.
Gorillitroopers - 6. They make a nice, tough ranged pod with Zaeus and/or Laglor, especially when you add Raelin. I like their versatility. They are expensive though, even when you run only one squad and a Primadon hero. Braxas and such worries me.
Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep - 7. Tough melee three squad. They're very similar to the Warforged Soldiers, hence why they're the same rank. I think Indomitable is better than Tactical Switch, so I gave the Shieldsmiths the edge.
Bloodburst Thrall - 4. Definitely the best Thrall, but...still a Thrall. 4 defense is nice however. Pretty good against a healthy hero if you can get to them. Honestly if he wasn't a Thrall and wasn't a 'maybe'-expensive-3-squad, the Bloodburst would be pretty good.
Crypt Guardian - 4. He's slow but beefy. I like the theme and who he works with a lot. Shoutout to Jexik - he was the one who thought of this guy originally (I guess someone saw his post?). Makes Sudema better, gives the Guards another figure activate per turn if you really want to run them, even though their power's pretty much the same. I think his 60pt. is keeping him from being higher, considering the Queens that he works with are expensive. Maybe if he had more of an attack threat he'd bump up to a 5. Hard for me to rate a unit low that bonds with Braxas. I went with a high 4.
Knights of Blackgaard - 6. Expensive but strong, considering their stats being a 4-squad. Interesting figures that they work with - Incendiborgs, Venocs, Krug, Hawthorne. From what I've heard people post they seem to not disappoint. I think they're about the same level as the Gladiator army. They have Incendiborgs at their disposal so I put them above. Maybe there will be a Relentless hero that has more synergy with them down the road.
Calibrax the Kyrie Warrior - 6. Quite a strong figure paired with Q9 and the like. Fragile, but you still get a double attack ranged flyer with an attack of 3, even if you don't get the opportunity for healing, and that's good. Was considering a 7.
Emperor Andask - 5. His aura is a little bit weird to use effectively. Makes Runa a bit better, even if you're investing 130pt. into her ability, her ability bumped to 10% success rate can be strong. Makes Kelda better too. Maybe Andask+Kelda+Hydra is the way to go with him? He has some intriguing possibilities but he is on the pricey side at 130pt.
Major J15 - 7. A single attack hero but a strong one for 95pt. Great in matchups where you can get him to engage large/huge things. You're pretty much always going to do damage with him thanks to his Guided Cannon Special Attack. Not a bad figure to run with the Trons (definitely better than X17! and you save 5pt.! ). A good hero for Hoplitrons to bond with, too.
Rygarn - 8. Him and the Varja were probably the hardest units for me to rate, as both are potentially super strong, but I'm a little uneducated on both as I haven't played either of them. I've heard that Chrono-Key is an incredibly strong ability, making him a very strong figure. I like that it works with literally every figure - there are no restrictions. Temporal Jump makes him survive so you can use Chrono-Key hopefully the whole game, and also makes him a nice endgame hero with his 6 range 4 attack. I decided to put both him and the Varja at the top of Tier 8 for now, as I'm still very lost on their power, each could be as high as a high-9 (maybe even 10?) and as low as a 7 in my eyes, but I think more towards the high end probably for both.
Jarek Guy - 5.
Prince al'Kahora - 5.
Asterios - 6.
Red Ants of Aunstrom - 5.
Beorn Boltcutter - 6.
Garrett Burns - 2.
Josie Whistletop - 4.
Seleena - 5.
20th Maine Volunteers - 6.
Tomb Skeleton Archers - 5.
Achillean Gladiatrix - 5.
Xualtiaca Fire Ants - 6.
Zettian Deathwings - 5.
Bramcephys - 5.
The Varja - 8.
Cormin the Dark - 3.
Ashi-Dhulu - 6.
Urk - 5.
53rd North Carolina Sharpshooters - 6.
Teeth of the Makwa - 6.
Sentinels of Grax - 7.
Brute Gruts - 9.
Heracles - 8.
Hrognak - 7.
Patrick Ferguson - 5.
Pel the Hill Giant - 7.
Durgeth Ravagers - 6.
Darkprowl Thrall - 2.
Nottingham Brigand - 6.
Executioner 616 - 6
Viceron the Blood Knight - 5.
Kon-Tar-Na - 7.
Chen Tang - 5.
Master Lao Xin - 6.
Locksley - 7.
Yi Feng - 5.
Zhen Yuan - 5.
Gothlok - 8.
Maltis Tez - 5.

Last edited by Cleon; December 31st, 2018 at 02:21 AM.
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Old December 19th, 2018, 04:12 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

Reserved.

It appears I'm missing 3 units. Last time I counted it was 319 total units. Let me find out which ones I forgot...

Edit: one of them is 20th Maine.

Last edited by Cleon; December 19th, 2018 at 05:03 AM.
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Old December 19th, 2018, 10:06 AM
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Movement

J15 absolutely needs to move up. He's a beast. I also think Hops and executioner might be a titch too low. Same with Deathwings. I also feel like Haduc is too low. Only did a cursory glance, so I may have more later.

~Dysole, who loves her robuts


This sentence has exactly seven words.
This sentence doesn't have exactly seven words.

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Old December 19th, 2018, 02:21 PM
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Re: Movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
J15 absolutely needs to move up. He's a beast. I also think Hops and executioner might be a titch too low. Same with Deathwings. I also feel like Haduc is too low. Only did a cursory glance, so I may have more later.

~Dysole, who loves her robuts
My first thoughts on reading this list overlapped a lot with this. I would have put J15, Hops, and Haduc higher.

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Old December 19th, 2018, 03:03 PM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

I also feel like the Kozuke Samurai should be a little higher with the addition of Tomoe Gozen. One of their greatest problems is losing members prematurely against range, but she makes it significantly easier to set them up if they sit next to her and then rush out the next turn (which is even more feasible with Raelin). It's not game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, but 3 attacks of 5 can really hurt, and they might get in a couple more good turns with her afterwards, as well. I'd personally move them a little bit closer to the top of Tier 5 (and then move up the Izumi and Tagawa a little bit as well, the latter of which can become quite terrifying with Tomoe). The Samurai still aren't top-tier or anything, but there are a lot more ways to make them work now.

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Old December 19th, 2018, 05:19 PM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

I found the other two you're missing: Axegrinders of Burning Forge and Deepwyrm Drow. Additionally, you spelled Rechets with an additional t ("Retchets"), which also confused my spreadsheet slightly.

(7 more coming soon to be added)...

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Old December 20th, 2018, 01:14 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

Come on, Shiori with Kantono Daishi, where you can just leave the X order marker on her all the time, should be bumped up a teir.

Hatamoto Taro in his Ashigaru army is better than the Obsidian Guards. Honestly, having brought the Obsidian Guards to an actual Tournament, I'd place them below everything. They just cost too much for what they can do, even on a lava map.
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Old December 20th, 2018, 03:59 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

Going to write the descriptions/reasoning for the units right now, then I'll get to the comments.

Also, what are the chances of me posting this list and a new batch of C3V figures is released within 48 hours later?! I had no idea that a batch of units were ready to go haha, but very cool. I'll rate and add them very soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I found the other two you're missing: Axegrinders of Burning Forge and Deepwyrm Drow. Additionally, you spelled Rechets with an additional t ("Retchets"), which also confused my spreadsheet slightly.

(7 more coming soon to be added)...
Thanks so much man. My eyes were killing me after typing it all and moving things around at the same time, and renumbering a million times, I couldn't figure it out haha. I deleted the Axegrinders and meant to move them up, but forgot to add them. The Drows I guess I just spaced on. I'll add those and the 20th Maine right away.

319 units is a lot of units.
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Old December 20th, 2018, 05:32 AM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I found the other two you're missing: Axegrinders of Burning Forge and Deepwyrm Drow. Additionally, you spelled Rechets with an additional t ("Retchets"), which also confused my spreadsheet slightly.

(7 more coming soon to be added)...
I actually had the Axegrinders listed. But I found the final culprit: Blue Wyrmling. I remember deleting him for the Blade Dancers (don't remember why) but I never put him back. Alright, 319!

Writing the descriptions now...
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Old December 29th, 2018, 12:08 PM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

So the descriptions are taking forever, especially with the holidays and all (been busy), I'll start commenting and finishing the descriptions simultaneously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
J15 absolutely needs to move up. He's a beast. I also think Hops and executioner might be a titch too low. Same with Deathwings. I also feel like Haduc is too low. Only did a cursory glance, so I may have more later.

~Dysole, who loves her robuts
I felt J15 was only so good because he's a single attacker, but maybe Hoplitron makes them both better than I have them. He's definitely good, do you think he should move up within the tier or go up a tier altogether?

Hoplitron I put at the top of 5, but maybe the J15/Hop combo puts him higher. Maybe Executioner helps too. Hoplitron does have 6 defense though, which is very nice, and 4 attack makes him be able to kill. Maybe I'll bump him to 6 in the first update.

Executioner 616 I was weary about putting high because his detonation is instead of attacking and and isn't definite, but the odds-to-damage isn't bad. Regardless, he has 2 attack deadly strike and Hoplitrons and Zettians bond with him, and he works with all soulborgs - rats, trons, etc. I could see him higher in the 6 tier.

Deathwings I was lost on and still am, I have to play them (I have not played all of VC). They reminded me of Kursus so I put them in the same tier. They could easily be higher than where I put them, they have a lot of potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I also feel like the Kozuke Samurai should be a little higher with the addition of Tomoe Gozen. One of their greatest problems is losing members prematurely against range, but she makes it significantly easier to set them up if they sit next to her and then rush out the next turn (which is even more feasible with Raelin). It's not game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, but 3 attacks of 5 can really hurt, and they might get in a couple more good turns with her afterwards, as well. I'd personally move them a little bit closer to the top of Tier 5 (and then move up the Izumi and Tagawa a little bit as well, the latter of which can become quite terrifying with Tomoe). The Samurai still aren't top-tier or anything, but there are a lot more ways to make them work now.
I moved the Kozuke up within their own tier in comparison to my previous list (it's hard to see because there are so many more units with the VC included). But I still think the samurai's power goes Tagawa>Izumi>Kozuke. Kozuke are fragile and want to move, Tomoe Gozen helps them yes but they have to be adjacent, and I think they still have a big tendency of dying without killing enough points. I wrote in Tomoe Gozen's description, I think her+Tagawa is a strong combo that's 6 in power. Her+Izumi isn't as strong and is a 5, and Her+Kozuke I don't think works the same or as well, but is still a 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Come on, Shiori with Kantono Daishi, where you can just leave the X order marker on her all the time, should be bumped up a teir.

Hatamoto Taro in his Ashigaru army is better than the Obsidian Guards. Honestly, having brought the Obsidian Guards to an actual Tournament, I'd place them below everything. They just cost too much for what they can do, even on a lava map.
With the VC included, there's many many new synergies and army builds that I haven't memorized yet and some still allude me. And because my list is very meticulous, there's definitely units that move slightly in power that I probably overlooked. Kantono Daishi I don't think really makes the ninja army much better...he's okay with the two 10 pointers but I don't think he's all that great with the other ninjas, because investing points in a bunch of fragile and bad figures isn't all that great for an army. I think his power isn't any better than the NotNW outside of a Kantono Daishi build. But, that said, I didn't really think too much about the other three ninjas - Kumiko, Moriko, Shiori - if they moved up in power. Not sure if Moriko really does, Kumiko might slightly, and yes, Shiori probably does. She's probably a 2 now with Kantono. I need many eyes now that there is 319 (well, 324 after the latest release) units and a plethora of new synergies throughout haha. I'll definitely be updating this list frequently, more frequent than my one for classic 'scape, as this one is expanding and harder to completely grasp.

Hatamoto Taro I think is the worst unit in the game. I don't think he does much for the Samurai/Ashigaru (which isn't great in the first place) army at all for his points. If you want to run Samurai or Ashigaru and do well, you don't have the points for Hatamoto. And Hatamoto doesn't do anything outside of those builds at all. I'd rather take a 3 squad that's 4/4 for 100pt. (and roughly another Obsidian for 130pt.), than Hatamoto as a hero. I feel like Hatamoto is way too pricey for what he adds to the Samurai army (which again, isn't great) that Raelin doesn't, and the two as a combo is too many points for the Samurai/Ashigaru. The main problem with Hatamoto is his aura ability only works against adjacent attacks - a huge detriment coupled with what he works with and his price. If it worked against range, then you could do armies like Raelin+Hatamoto+Harquebusx3+Unique Samurai squad which isn't all that horrible. But because of that limitation, he barely adds anything to that army. In much much higher point games, like 800-900pt., maybe Hatamoto Taro is (kinda) worth it.

But Obsidians are horrible too. I think they're the worst common squad in the game. They don't even really do much better on a lava map lol, which is usually only ~1/5 of a map poolanyways, not that it matters much. And conversely, usually map pools are 1/3-1/2 SotM maps, which are horrible for them. But I'd rather take them over Pelloth or Hatamoto being that they're a 4/4 3-squad.

Last edited by Cleon; December 29th, 2018 at 12:24 PM.
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Old December 29th, 2018, 12:48 PM
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Robotnik

Hops don't have many figures but they do tend to have staying power due to stats and large and soulborg immunities. J reminds me a lot of heirloom. While heirloom can splash and has some good defense, J gets some immunities, some flexibility, and a bit of bonding.

Executioner should be played with detonation as a bonus
or something to use after a unit has lost its usefulness, rather than the sole focus as you're going to get more value out of her deadly strike than you will with her detonation. She's solid but not amazing and fits well in every soulborg build.

Deathwings can wreck people. The big advantage they have over Kursus is being a squad and being able to kite if kabooming is inefficient. They're kind of like vippers or havechs. They're usually fine, but they'll have games where they absolutely wreck your opponent (and some games where they underwhelm).

~Dysole, who loves all of these units (she'd better love executioner since she created her)


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Old December 29th, 2018, 12:55 PM
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Re: Cleon's VC Unit Tier List (December 2018)

I'd love to hear your Brute Grut strategies!
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