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Architects of the Realms of Valhalla Discussion and presentation of the maps approved by the ARV.


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  #25  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 05:32 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Hello. I'd like to hear what feedback you had for my map.



My guess is the height was, well, too high. I have already made some changes myself, but I want to hear what you have to say.
1) The main thing for me was I actually preferred your original build, most of us did. The only change I think it needed was for you to add 1 hex next to the glyphs to make double-spaced accessible. The Marvel set is really hard to incorporate into maps, and I think using it to build up the map was brilliant, but when you uncovered it and brought it out, that really detracted from the aesthetics of it.

2) the requirement was to have a powerside up power glyph to indicate the wellspring, and though I get that the wellspring is drying up, in your backstory you indicate that the wellspring was still invigorating travelers. Thematically then, the glyph should have been in some sort of water to indicate that.

3) The valda glyph was somewhat redundant. With it already being such a small map and you already providing road through the whole center, valda loses it's strength for an army, because it's not really necessary. I'd likely neglect it altogether because with normal movement, my units can get mid map within a couple turns anyway. Overall it could be a fairly balanced map, but measured against the others in the contest, the map just wasn't as aesthetically pleasing, balanced or as particularly unique/creative as the others that made the Top 10.
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  #26  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 06:40 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I don't personally mind the marvel set, but I knew of a lot of people wouldn't like it. I had it entirely covered at first, but decided to uncover it based on this post by TREX:
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Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Is all of the marvel set hiding? I do see a strip of black from the side.
I thought that if I explained that it was supposed to be ruins it would work alright.

I originally used Dagmar as the wellspring glyph, and I'm not really sure why I chose to switch to Valda.
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  #27  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 12:25 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Hello. I'd like to hear what feedback you had for my map.



My guess is the height was, well, too high. I have already made some changes myself, but I want to hear what you have to say.
I'd echo the thoughts of Sir Heroscape - while I didn't mind the Marvel pieces being visible as much as the other judges did, they do make the map less aesthetically pleasing so it took a small hit for that. Valda being a weak glyph for the map was also a small issue (but there's a lot of climbing so not a huge one). The thematic break of Valda being a Wellspring Glyph was also there; for me, it wasn't that it wasn't on water, as I can totally dig there not being enough water to stop someone but there still being enough magic to affect the area. What bugged me about it was that apparently someone had paved over the wellspring with road, and then the trace of magic-wellspring-stuff was still there. I would have preferred it on a sand/rock hex. In addition to those, other main places I took points off were:

A mild glyph imbalance - 6 move figures can reach the glyph to their right faster than a 5 move can, but that wasn't a huge dock.
Line of sight blockers were okay, but really weren't doing a ton to hinder range, especially the trees (ruins were a bit better).
A lot about the map was okay, but not great, and the strategic choices weren't super compelling.

And then the biggest thing for me: the hills on either side have a lot of hexes on the heighest level, and a glyph right on the edge of them also on really high ground. This makes the hills super defendable, which can lead to a "my hill, your hill" endgame if you win one side and your opponent wins the other, meaning whoever has the strongest glyph wins. Also, like I said, the LoS blockers aren't doing a ton to hinder ranged armies that take a hill, so if I have one hill and longer range than you, I win. They're just very turtle-inducing, which is not something that I believe competitive maps should encourage (yes, turtling is a viable strategy, but not something to auto-win a game based on what map you play on).

That said, there were several things I like about the map as well. I think your use of the road was very good, and I particularly liked how intuitive the start zones are. I think it can be turned into a great map with a bit of work.

Last edited by BiggaBullfrog; June 3rd, 2017 at 12:45 PM.
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  #28  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 01:01 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I like the constructiveness of your guys' posts, so I'm gonna join in on this. What were your guys' thoughts on Arachnid?

Arachnid 1.2
Requires: 1 RotV, 2 RttFF


EDIT: Well dang, apparently I never updated the .pdf. I'm guessing that had a big impact on it?

It's updated now!

My Maps
Tournament Record: 28-28: .500!

Last edited by heroscaper2010; June 3rd, 2017 at 01:19 PM.
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  #29  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 01:53 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

@heroscaper2010 here are my thoughts.

1) Too big. There is no hard fast rule on a balanced map's size...but you can tell when a map is too big. This map takes up a lot of space, but not only that, it's just a little too wide imo, making it hard for units to cross laterally. The Road is meant to help speed up the movement, but the subtle detriment is that then all the movement and conflict is along the road. And you don't want to get off because you need that fast movement to get across the map.
2) 2 Wannocks. Two wannocks is risky business. One is hard enough as is, but putting two can really imbalance a map. Mainly because if both players have it, there's really no advantage, but if one player has both then the opponent is at an EXTREME disadvantage. I wouldn't be as concerned with this if they were the only Glyphs but adding 2 other power Glyphs really eats up your figure count if you're trying to control Glyphs. Which brings me to my 3rd point...
3) the two outside power Glyphs are imbalanced and unnecessarily revealed. The Valda glyph is hands down more powerful than Dagmar and will draw all the attention to that side of the map early. An opponent will not willingly grab Dagmar early because it doesn't activate till the beginning of next round. Valda on the other hand will make all the difference early. The outside power Glyphs could be removed or even randomized to help the balance a little more.
4) Theme. Wellsprings do not kill people. On a fundamental level, the use of a Wannock glyphs for the power of the Wellspring is flawed. And since theme is an integral part of the scoring, that had an effect.

Hope that helps!
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  #30  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 01:53 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I like the constructiveness of your guys' posts, so I'm gonna join in on this. What were your guys' thoughts on Arachnid?

Arachnid 1.2
Requires: 1 RotV, 2 RttFF


EDIT: Well dang, apparently I never updated the .pdf. I'm guessing that had a big impact on it?

It's updated now!
Ha, yes, the new .pdf version does make it a bit better. Was the only thing changed the Wannok glyphs? That's all I'm seeing right off the bat but if there was more let me know and I'll tell you if that would have had an impact on anything. But yes, the original position of the Wannok glyphs had a big negative impact on the map, but not the only one. Here are some things from my notes when I built it:

Even with the new positions of the Wannok glyphs, there's a slight imbalance in that one side can reach one faster than the other side. Since they're both the same glyph, it's not a terrible thing, but I would prefer melee to be at least in striking distance in the same amount of movement on whichever side. But it wouldn't be as nearly large of a hit as it was in your old version.
Melee not being able to get height on the edge glyphs was a (very) minor hit.
The road walls along the rock 24-hex tiles were another small hit, as they're not doing much for the map other than slowing down melee.
One more minor thing (like half a point) that would be super easily fixed: when built, the map doesn't use 1 2-hex rock tile and 1 water tile. Also, at either end of the river running through the map, there are empty spaces that are covered in the next level, but you can still see through them to the table beneath which is a slight asymmetric break (though there are maps that are worse). If you just take those two extra tiles and place them in those empty spaces, you won't be able to see through and you won't be floating extra tiles.

There was also an issue with the bridges in the middle. Having only two 1-hex roads to cross the middle of the map makes it super susceptible to screening armies (including our ever-favorite Deathreavers) and heavily weakens melee armies. Having road hexes be the highest points on the map further strengthens ranged armies. Melee armies would just have a terrible time trying to cut through screens and circle around the long way, all while being shot to pieces by ranged figures.
There was also an issue of map size - it's a really big map and, while there is plenty of road, flow doesn't really go across it super well. Going from start zone to start zone isn't terrible (unless, like I said, there are blockers on the bridges), but going east to west doesn't flow very well. The negative impact here was twofold: first, such a large map slows down gameplay a lot (of course, you don't want a map to be too small, and this one wasn't too big by a ton, but it did cross the line), and second, it's another hurt to melee armies that are trying to cross the map to get where the action is all while being shot by ranged figures. I think if you either shrunk the size a bit and/or rearranged the road to really speed figures through the map (especially east/west) it would go a long way to making the map better.

That all said, I do think that your map was one of the most visibly striking of the ones submitted. It looks great and was fun to build. And, in all honesty, I'd probably play casual games on it as-is (as long as I'm playing armies designed to play on this map - probably fast ranged guys for fun firefights). It's got the visual aspect, it just needs a bit more honing towards the competitive aspect.
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  #31  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 05:58 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I don't personally mind the marvel set, but I knew of a lot of people wouldn't like it. I had it entirely covered at first, but decided to uncover it based on this post by TREX:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Is all of the marvel set hiding? I do see a strip of black from the side.
I thought that if I explained that it was supposed to be ruins it would work alright.

I originally used Dagmar as the wellspring glyph, and I'm not really sure why I chose to switch to Valda.
I was just curious. I didnt mean for you to have to revamp your map.
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  #32  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 09:43 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I don't personally mind the marvel set, but I knew of a lot of people wouldn't like it. I had it entirely covered at first, but decided to uncover it based on this post by TREX:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Is all of the marvel set hiding? I do see a strip of black from the side.
I thought that if I explained that it was supposed to be ruins it would work alright.

I originally used Dagmar as the wellspring glyph, and I'm not really sure why I chose to switch to Valda.
I was just curious. I didnt mean for you to have to revamp your map.
Yeah I actually thought his original build where he used the Marvel set to build up the map was brilliant because then he was able to use the other sets for visual appeal.
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  #33  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 11:26 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I am not able (or sure ) of how to attach a file.. on that note, I will submit a map for workshopping when I am informed of how to do so.

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-@Sherman Davies;


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  #34  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 11:33 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I like the constructiveness of your guys' posts, so I'm gonna join in on this. What were your guys' thoughts on Arachnid?

Arachnid 1.2
Requires: 1 RotV, 2 RttFF


EDIT: Well dang, apparently I never updated the .pdf. I'm guessing that had a big impact on it?

It's updated now!
I posted in your map thread. Basically the size was quite big. I suggested you make a version with 4 startzones for a 2v2 map. The map does look good in that sense.
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  #35  
Old June 3rd, 2017, 11:44 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTravelingScaper View Post
I am not able (or sure ) of how to attach a file.. on that note, I will submit a map for workshopping when I am informed of how to do so.
Basically you copy the link, or shortcut of the download file(VS File) by right clicking on it. Then in the post you click the icon and paste it in there. Then you are able to post your file. If you want an image. Copy the image location then click the icon and paste it in there.

As far as your maps go, in my opinion. They looked really cool. The problem with them for this contest is they are not competitively balanced. Just a few things I'll point out.
-Figures in an opponents start zone can be grenade bombed on turn 1. This is a sure way to kill a map for balance reasons. Example. I have a figure that can do a grenade attack, or shotgun blast etc. I win initiative and immediately hit max damage on my opponents start zone killing 7+ figures in one turn without the opponent getting to do a thing about it.
-Ladder usage. The maps utilize ladders and don't have any way for non flying large two hex figures to reach the higher levels. Any small figure or flying figure could sit up there and just shoot the other player without anything being done back. Killer on balance.
Those are the two things that really killed competitive chances on your maps. However, your maps are really cool looking and totally favor some cool scenario type game play. When the maps were scored there was a pretty big emphasis on balance. When we do tournaments. We want the people coming to the tournament to have an epic time. If there is a broken or unbalanced map, it can really do a number on them.
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  #36  
Old June 4th, 2017, 01:08 AM
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Request for Workshopping:Forgotten Sanctuary



https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...o=file&id=4657

My ultimate goal is to make the map tournament worthy.(And possibly have @Sir Heroscape play on it in one of his videos if its reworked to a better caliber. )

Quote:
Less-than-complete understanding of the rules is bad behavior? Since when?
-@Sherman Davies;


My Tradeslist : http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=51248

Last edited by TheTravelingScaper; June 4th, 2017 at 01:10 AM. Reason: Fixing Link
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