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  #157  
Old January 7th, 2019, 02:49 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
To cut that list way down, you could stipulate that Pierce must be unengaged. That still hits theme, to me.
Well, considering that the basic issue is the question of who's really firing, wouldn't you also have to stipulate that all the other Lawmen you're counting must be unengaged as well?

I mean, to achieve the goal of knocking things off the "counterintuitive list" you're basically trying to eliminate the cases where it would even matter who's firing, and to do that you have to make sure Clayton and all the deputies are all in the same game state.


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  #158  
Old January 7th, 2019, 02:58 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
To cut that list way down, you could stipulate that Pierce must be unengaged. That still hits theme, to me.
Well, considering that the basic issue is the question of who's really firing, wouldn't you also have to stipulate that all the other Lawmen you're counting must be unengaged as well?

I mean, to achieve the goal of knocking things off the "counterintuitive list" you're basically trying to eliminate the cases where it would even matter who's firing, and to do that you have to make sure Clayton and all the deputies are all in the same game state.
True. That wouldn't be too hard to add, as you've noted. Just add "unengaged" in the middle ("another unengaged Lawman") and then slap "Clayton Pierce must be unengaged to attack with Shootout Special Attack." at the end.
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  #159  
Old January 7th, 2019, 03:48 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

I think that's about as close as you could get in a Special Attack. And while it's not the worst solution so far, I think I can do one better:


SHOOTOUT
After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of a Lawman you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton Pierce and taking a turn with that Lawman, if that Lawman inflicted one or more wounds on an enemy figure with a normal or special attack, you may choose another Lawman you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton Pierce. Take a turn with the chosen Lawman, during which it can only attack.


This avoids the other-Lawmen-are-supposed-to-be-shooting-but-really-it's-Clayton weirdness. Requiring an OM reveal prevents loops, and encourages spreading OMs out rather than dumping them all on CP. It's further restricted by the need to inflict wound(s), though that may prove to be unnecessary and could be removed. Having the Lawmen within 4 clear sight spaces of CP works nicely with Posse. It is another "take a turn but only attack" power, but it feels extremely thematic and elegant here. And the Lawmen aren't restricted to normal attacks, though that's a possible wheel to turn (if the wound requirement were lifted, for example).


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  #160  
Old January 7th, 2019, 10:38 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Here's a question with the new Clayton. I'll use Carr and Lady Krav as stand-ins (click the pic to make it a little bigger).



Clearly Clayton can shoot at the Marro Warrior on his first shot or a later shot when Kate raises her hand. But can he ping off Kate to shoot at the Zettian?


...


I'm sad that people seem to feel that doing the shootout in a way that is more thematically satisfying would somehow be too boring. It makes little sense to me that a "shootout" is when Clayton uses his revolver to ricochet his shots off of all his deputies at Deadeye-Danlike rifle range while they all stand there as just spotters.

With the current version, the answer is yes. And I do definitely agree with you that a Special Attack is a compromise in theme and mechanics, but when you design for a project like VC I feel like you do have to make compromises, and that the SA version feels like a good compromise.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I think that limiting it to within 6 spaces of both Clayton and the chosen Lawman would be rather clunky and confusing. The idea is that the chosen Lawman is taking the shot, not Clayton, so the range of his gun shouldn't matter. I think that the theme comes across pretty strongly as-is, albeit I'm sure there are some weird corner cases where it'll actually matter that it's Clayton who is technically making the shot.

Agreed, and I'd argue being able to "ping" or chain it actually reinforces the theme of the other lawmen taking the shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
It might also be worth thinking about how you want Sheriff's Posse and Shootout SA to work in the future if later on there are Lawmen that are squaddies, common, or both. I have a vague memory that maybe C3V was working on a common Lawman (for that clix guy in the green shirt), but even if they aren't it's always best to future-proof your text. In case you will only want Lawman Heroes or Unique Lawmen or Unique Lawman Heroes to count, now would seem like a good time to note that before it gets forgotten.
My instinct is to allow any Lawman - if we ever did get the figures for a lawman squad, it would be interesting to allow them to get the shootout with CP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
And (maybe even more important) it's not just "weird corner cases" that matter. It's also core gameplay. Things as simple and basic as the rule that you cannot target a non-adjacent figure if you're engaged, for example. I wish now that I had shown this in my example by making Kate engaged, but you guys will immediately see what I'm talking about. (I wonder what fraction of players will realize that if Clayton is engaged and there are 4 Lawmen nearby, Clayton can attack the adjacent figure 5 times but nobody else; and it matters not if any of the deputies are engaged.) When the basic theme behind a special leads to the wrong interpretation of a core rule, that's not something that should be handwaved away.

The number of "corner cases" is not exactly trivial, and they will grow as well. I did a quick scan to see which figures have specials where it matters today, or will matter in the future after more units are created (such as a Lawman who follows Utgar). My quick scan revealed these, though I'm sure there are more (and I don't have all the latest VCs in my database):

Combat Challenge (Tandros Kreel)
Concealment (Brave Arrow, Mohican River Tribe)
Dismiss the Rabble (Templar Cavalry)
Eternal War (Ebon Armor)
Evasive (Zettian Deathwings, Beakface Sneaks, Elite Onyx Vipers)
Flutter (Quorik Warwitch)
Gunner Casualties (Mok)
Iron Shirt Mastery (Yi Feng)
Protection from Evil Aura (Ana Karithon)
Purple Heart (Capt. John Varan)
Skeletal Form (Tomb Skeleton Archers), Tomb Skeletons
Stealth Dodge (Agent Skahen, Deathwalker 7000, Krav Maga Agents)
This is definitely a huge concern, and I absolutely see your point here. I agree with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
To cut that list way down, you could stipulate that Pierce must be unengaged. That still hits theme, to me.
Well, considering that the basic issue is the question of who's really firing, wouldn't you also have to stipulate that all the other Lawmen you're counting must be unengaged as well?

I mean, to achieve the goal of knocking things off the "counterintuitive list" you're basically trying to eliminate the cases where it would even matter who's firing, and to do that you have to make sure Clayton and all the deputies are all in the same game state.
True. That wouldn't be too hard to add, as you've noted. Just add "unengaged" in the middle ("another unengaged Lawman") and then slap "Clayton Pierce must be unengaged to attack with Shootout Special Attack." at the end.
- that requiring unengagement (Pierce and Lawmen) will help cut down a lot of those cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I think that's about as close as you could get in a Special Attack. And while it's not the worst solution so far, I think I can do one better:


SHOOTOUT
After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of a Lawman you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton Pierce and taking a turn with that Lawman, if that Lawman inflicted one or more wounds on an enemy figure with a normal or special attack, you may choose another Lawman you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton Pierce. Take a turn with the chosen Lawman, during which it can only attack.


This avoids the other-Lawmen-are-supposed-to-be-shooting-but-really-it's-Clayton weirdness. Requiring an OM reveal prevents loops, and encourages spreading OMs out rather than dumping them all on CP. It's further restricted by the need to inflict wound(s), though that may prove to be unnecessary and could be removed. Having the Lawmen within 4 clear sight spaces of CP works nicely with Posse. It is another "take a turn but only attack" power, but it feels extremely thematic and elegant here. And the Lawmen aren't restricted to normal attacks, though that's a possible wheel to turn (if the wound requirement were lifted, for example).
I very, very much like this.


We (me, NecroBlade, All Your Pie) talked about this a lot in the heroscape discord and came up with the following powerset. Let us know what you think.

Quote:
POSSE
After revealing an Order Marker on a Lawman Hero you control and before taking a turn with that Hero, you may move each other Lawman Hero you control with an unrevealed Order Marker on its Army Card up to 5 spaces each. Other Heroes moved with Posse must begin their movement within clear sight of Clayton Pierce. You can only use Posse if there is at least one Order Marker on this card.

SHOOTOUT
After revealing an Order Marker on Clayton Pierce or the Army Card of a Lawman Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton Pierce and taking a turn with that Hero, if that Hero inflicted one or more wounds on an enemy figure with a normal or special attack, you may choose another Lawman Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of the attacking Hero. Take a turn with the chosen Hero, during which it can only attack.
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  #161  
Old January 8th, 2019, 12:30 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Hah! Actually, I think that version of Shootout is wrong, we need to talk it over still. Look over that version of Posse, though, and keep in mind we're trying to get Shootout to a place where it's not a special attack anymore.
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  #162  
Old January 8th, 2019, 10:48 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

I like where this is all going, a lot. Good work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Hah! Actually, I think that version of Shootout is wrong
It seems the thing that's "wrong" is that it's limited to a two-man Shootout (the chaining got lost in the revisions). I'm working on a possible idea to restore that using the "you may continue as long as" template, but in the meantime here are a few thoughts on Posse.
  • The requirement to have an OM on Clayton seems too important — and too unusual — to come at the end of the text. Adapting one of the templates that starts out "[blah blah blah] you may use [name of power]" can put that very important/unusual condition right up front, and will also make that sentence a bit shorter.

  • How about using "Lawman" as a shortcut instead of "Hero"? It's more specific (from a standardization perspective, it would be clearer in contexts where you are also referencing some other hero who is not a lawman, such as an outlaw). Existing powers do use the more specific label; for example, Beorn Boltcutter's UPGRADE has you choose a Soulborg Hero but then shortcuts it (twice) by saying "that Soulborg" (rather than that Hero). This also makes the text read more thematically, so it's a clarity and theme win/win.

  • The two instances of "each" in the same sentence are redundant.

  • There are different official ways to refer to "taking that [blah]'s turn." I'd recommend using the shorter one since you'll need to do it multiple times and these specials are not going to be short (especially Shootout).

  • Since this works with unique or common Lawman Heroes, according to Scape wording conventions your text has to explicitly acknowledge the multiple-army-card issue. (More on this below.)
Thus my suggested tweak would look like this:
POSSE
When there is at least one Order Marker on this card, you may use Posse. After revealing an Order Marker on a Lawman Hero you control and before taking that Lawman’s turn, you may move each other Lawman Hero you control with an unrevealed Order Marker on its Army Card (or cards if you have more than one common card for that figure) up to 5 spaces each. Other Lawmen moved with Posse must begin their movement within clear sight of Clayton Pierce.
Back on the common Lawman issue, you could potentially have hordes of common deputies and get to move them all with just a single OM on one of the common cards. If you don't want that, then you may want to consider limiting this to "move each other Unique Lawman Hero you control...."

Although, if you're going to limit it to uniques then you may not need the OM requirement. You could let the player just move all his unique lawman heroes, or maybe all the ones within a certain proximity to Clayton.


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  #163  
Old January 8th, 2019, 11:10 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Are you following along in the discord, JaB? Just curious, I’ll respond to the content of your post when I’m not on discord.
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  #164  
Old January 8th, 2019, 11:17 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

And now my notes on Shootout. I'm not entirely settled on what I've done here, but here it is for your consideration and critique.
  • For grammatical structure integrity, you should move "the Army Card of" forward, in front of the conjunction split point.

  • You don't really need to follow the usual Scape verbosity of "and after taking a turn with that Hero" in this case. The fact that wounds have to have been inflicted mandates that the attack has already happened, so you really only need a minimal reference to the chaining being after the turn is over.

  • Same comment on shortcutting with Lawman instead of Hero.

  • I'd strongly suggest using the word "different" instead of "another," since choosing a different lawman each time is crucial to proper use of the chaining. We can then also repeat that word in the "may continue as long as" convention, for clarity through reinforcement.

  • I feel like "Lawman that just attacked" helps with first-read comprehension vs. "attacking Hero," again due to the chaining nature of the power and the fact that, normally, clear sight would all tie back to the figure whose card the special power is on. Maybe I'm being too verbose with that, but see what you think about it.

  • And finally, the "may continue as long as" bit. In the interest of keeping the text short, I've taken some liberties here with how I reference the wounding and different-figure selection. See what you think.
That all results more or less in something like this:
SHOOTOUT
After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of Clayton Pierce or a Lawman Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton Pierce, if that Lawman inflicts one or more wounds on an enemy figure with a normal or special attack, after taking that turn you may choose a different Lawman Hero you control within 4 clear sight spaces of the Lawman that just attacked. Take a turn with the chosen Lawman, during which it can only attack. You may continue taking turns with Shootout as long as wounds are inflicted and there are different Lawmen available to choose.


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  #165  
Old January 8th, 2019, 11:19 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Are you following along in the discord, JaB? Just curious, I’ll respond to the content of your post when I’m not on discord.
I hadn't been, but I'll try now (I'm new to Discord.)


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  #166  
Old January 11th, 2019, 08:40 PM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Haven't posted in here in a few days because we've been hard at work in the discord. This is the direction we're headed.

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  #167  
Old January 13th, 2019, 11:07 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

There are some similarities to other synergy units (like the 8th Infantry), but man does this feel like cowboy synergy!


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  #168  
Old January 13th, 2019, 11:22 AM
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Re: PK's customs MK. III - 12/11 - LEAD VENGEANCE 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
There are some similarities to other synergy units (like the 8th Infantry), but man does this feel like cowboy synergy!
Thanks to you and JaB!


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