Xotli & SpeedySonicX's customs (Reviewing: Triceratops)

[reapersaurus]

Boulder Throwing downhill should incorporate Grungebob's excellent Unicycle movement power wording.
Check the Halls of Valhalla and translate that into Range.

edit - found it:


From memory only:

Boulder Throw
When determining Rangefor the Stone Golems, don't count spaces that are at a lower elevation.

The problem I can see with that is that distance is "as the bird flies" - you'd pretty much have to change that whole mechanic and substitute a new way, counting elevations both up and down to determine Range for this ability.

Very game-expanding idea. I like it.

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

Very game-expanding idea. I like it.

Hey, thanx for the encouragement reaper. I was sure everyone was going to say "no no that's too complicated." But you seem to be saying I didn't go far enough ... cool!

Let's see what you've unleashed here.

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

Boulder Throw
When determining Rangefor the Stone Golems, don't count spaces that are at a lower elevation.

The problem I can see with that is that distance is "as the bird flies" - you'd pretty much have to change that whole mechanic and substitute a new way, counting elevations both up and down to determine Range for this ability.

Well, my first thought on reading this idea was that might really be too complicated. But the more I thought about it, the more I really liked it. After all, Mimring's Fireline is a bit complex itself, and they just provided an extra example in the rules to help you understand it. Why couldn't this be the same?

So I designed an example.

And now my fear is that instead of being complicated, it might be too powerful! Here's my take on the amended wording ... notice that I cranked it down to a total range of 2 because when I tried it at 3 it was just too damn scary.

Boulder Throw
When a Stone Golem is on a rock space, it may add 1 to its range. When counting spaces for a Stone Golem's range, if the path from it to its targeted figure never goes up in elevation, don't count spaces that are at a lower elevation from the previous space along the path.

A bit wonky, but we can work on the exact wording. Here's the interesting part (example image with suggested explanatory text):


Note that the Stone Golem is on a rock space, so he may use Boulder Throw. He can target Deadeye Dan, because Dan is exactly two spaces away, even though he is at the same level. He cannot target the Izumi Samurai or the Obsidian Guard, even though they are at a lower level, because they are 3 spaces away and there is no path to them that doesn't go up in elevation at some point. However, he can target both Roman Legionaires, because the paths to them only involve moving along the same level or going down in elevation and, when discounting the drops in elevation (the unmarked dots), the total count is 2. Note that if a figure occupied any point along those paths (even the ones that are not "counted"), the Stone Golem could target them.

Hopefully that all makes sense. But the point is ... look how far away this dude can throw!! If he's up on a mountaintop and it's downill all the way, he could throw across the whole board! I count about 27 or 28 spaces that he can reach just throwing towards the camera, not counting throwing downhill on the other side (that you can't see)--and just imagine how bad it would be if he were up there at step 1 on the path to Deadeye. But, it's also fair to note that, if we were counting range normally, the farthest point away would be only 7R, which is long range, but hardly extraordinary.

Now, on the one hand, I really like the "realism" of this. It's like he's tossing a big rock at you and it just bounces on down the hill and keeps rolling until it smacks you. But OTOH, is this too powerful?

(BTW, the map in the picture is GaryLASQ's quite excellent Brusymlund map.)

[reapersaurus]

I read it all.
Looked at the great pic that illustrated it.

And I'm thinking the first simplistic wording works best, seriously.
I remembered that it was problematic, but I think that was wrong - it accomplishes what you're trying to set out to do, right?
It allows the guy to throw a rock downhill a long way.
So why crank DOWN his Range to being useless unless the circumstances are good, and at the same time make him too strong when the circumstances are right?

Just let him throw downhill for free (which I think the wording inspired by GB's Unicycle would do well I think), and give him a range of like 5.

Is there something that straightforward-and-simple implementation is not satisfying your vision of this figure?

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

So why crank DOWN his Range to being useless unless the circumstances are good, and at the same time make him too strong when the circumstances are right?

But, see, none of the wording I added makes him stronger. I only added limitations. So with the wording changes, he is, as you say, useless unless the circumstances are good, and too strong when the circumstances are right (perhaps a mild exaggeration, but not much), but without the wording changes he's just plain too strong all the time.

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

Just let him throw downhill for free (which I think the wording inspired by GB's Unicycle would do well I think), and give him a range of like 5.

Okay, let's look back at the picture. From where the golem sits in the picture, there is not a single hex that you can see that wouldn't be in his range with the original wording you suggested and a range of 5, not to mention a hell of a lot of hexes you can't see. Now move him up to the "1" hex on the path towards Deadeye. From here, although you can't tell from the picture, he can hit every hex on this side of the river, except for about 5. Hell, he can hit every hex in the river except for about 6 or so. He can throw across the river too, including hitting people standing on the very last road space where the road goes off the board. (I'm assuming you know the map or can envision what the other side looks like based on the fact that it's symmetrical.)

In my picture, the farthest spaces he could hit are at about range 7. Changing it to 5R and not counting any lower hexes regardless of whether you have to go uphill to get to them, the farthest spaces he can hit (on this map) are at range 13. With a different map, he could get farther. With a sufficiently gradual slope down from a sufficiently tall height in the center of the map, he could easily hit every single space on a board.

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

Is there something that straightforward-and-simple implementation is not satisfying your vision of this figure?

Well, as I said, I had envisioned them being support troops. By giving them a range that will allow them to be the most effective ranged unit in the game (even though it requires the circumstances to be right), they definitely wouldn't still be support.

There's also a realism question as well. Imagine two mountains next to each other. The first slopes gradually down to level 1, and the second is a sheer cliff on the side facing the first (but a gradual slope down on the far side). If the golem is standing on mountain #1 and throws towards mountain #2, he could easily throw all the way down to the ground (which is fine). But if that only eats up 1 or 2 of his range (not that unlikely if it's a gradual slope), then the step to the top of mountain #2's cliff is only 1 more, leaving him 1 or 2 more "spaces" to go. Possibly even enough to get his rock all the way to the bottom of mountain #2. And he could do this even if mountain #2 were higher than mountain #1. Which just doesn't seem right.

[reapersaurus]

ya, that's why the up-hill has to be taken into account with the rocks I guess - good call, otherwise he'll gain elevation for 1 space, and then be able to roll down them potentially many spaces.

I wonder if something as simple as using the official rules for determining Range, with a slight tweak:


"When checking for Range, count extra spaces for higher levels. Don't count any spaces for lower levels."

Wow - that is remarkably short and to the point, and may just cover what you're trying to emulate.
I may have forgotten some rules issue - go ahead and tear holes in the rules text if so.

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

"When checking for Range, count extra spaces for higher levels. Don't count any spaces for lower levels."

Yeah, that's good. I might make it a little clearer that you don't count the levels or the down space, possibly recycling the movement rules text. Maybe something like ...

No, that won't work. The movement text is full of stuff like "when you move", and when you're checking for range nothing is actually moving. Maybe we could write it as if the boulder were actually moving. Hey! yeah, that could work. Something like ...

Hmmm ... this might be easier if it were a special attack instead of a range increase like the OG. (Plus then I get to bean Drake. ) How about this?

Boulder Throw
Special Attack. Range Special. Attack 4.
Use this power only when a Stone Golem is on a rock tile. To determine the range for Boulder Throw, treat the thrown boulder as a figure with move 4 that starts on the Stone Golem's space and must end on the space of the targeted figure. When the boulder moves to a higher level, count the side of each higher level as one space, as well as the space the boulder lands on. When the boulder moves to a lower level, you don't need to count sides on the way down, and you don't need to count the space the boulder lands on.

Notice I cranked the range back one notch. Counting spaces like that you can still get a pretty long-ass toss even with the new rule about counting spaces going up. It might even need to come back down to 3, but I'd like to play with it a bit before making that call.

Also making it a special attack means that it can't be enhanced, which might be good to keep it from getting out of control. Plus that way I can vary the amount of the attack independently from the attack of the Golems themselves.

So this version does indeed seem to be working really well. Thoughts? (Also if anyone has any thoughts on the other two changes, feel free to speak up on that as well.)

[Xotli]

After further consideration, that might be too much clarification. I've cranked back the text for the Boulder Throw special.

Since this version of Boulder Throw is so much cooler (as well as making them easier to move once they reach the rocks), I upped the points a bit as well. Check out the front page for the final (?) card.

So I'm going to call this one done for now and move on to the next custom.

[Xotli]

Custom #3: Triceratops

After finding the absolutely great dollar store dinosaur thanks to the tip from aardvark22, I decided to look around for some more dinos to go with him. Schleich makes some decent looking ones that are roughly the right scale, and Target has them for just a few bucks a piece. Some of them, obviously, are cooler than others.

As always, a picture for scale:

He's perhaps a tiny bit too small, but overall I think he looks good.

For the stats, I wanted something pretty simple here. There was originally just one special, in fact, but as I was writing it up, it seemed to work better to break it up into two separate powers. In the end I think I achieved what I was shooting for, which was a unit that was pretty crappy in close quarters, but give him some running room, and watch out!


BTW, if you're wondering how he ended up as an Einar unit, it's because I'm planning to do 4 or 5 different dinosaur units eventually, and I decided to split them up across factions as opposed to lumping them all in with Utgar or somesuch. And the solid, dependable Triceratops seemed to fit the best with Einar's motif. Plus I decided to make him disciplined just for the sheer joy of being able to toss him in with Parm & the Band and still get that bonus.

As always, your thoughts are solicited and appreciated.

[Xotli]

Is my lovely Triceratops so perfect that no one has any suggestions?

[reapersaurus]

See, here I am wanting to get stuff done , and you bump your thread that I really wanted to post a lot to.

Well, as the resident dino-fanatic on the boards, let me first say AWESOME inclusion of dinosaurs in HS - I wish there was more appreciation of them, cause I woulda made up a ton of them a long time ago if it would be for someone other than myself.

First - Dinos IMO need to have high life. Probably low defense to make them cheaper and simulate how they are not too smart at tactics in combat.

Also, he should be competent in melee combat.
The problem with Charge is that it is an example of a HS power that is too tough to balance - you have to make the starting attack unreasonably low to counter for the too-dominant ability boosts.

I'd suggest checking out my Chariot's Scythe-Swipe ability, or the War Mammoth, or some other recent Trample-like abilities to find one that works well enough to capture the idea you're trying to convey with this dinosaur.
The limitation of 3 movement spaces for a charge may be real-life, but it may be problematic for a HS ability (with the disengage, no-disengage stuff needed).

Now that I have HCC and can make cards easier, I could pump out some fun dinos pretty easily - if you're interested in dinos in HS (obviously), I may get the muse.