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  #5077  
Old October 10th, 2016, 05:31 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I appreciate the prompt response. I'll move forward then. Any suggestion on where we can try to "gain the support of the community"? Should that be a post somewhere where people vote? Maybe this is over the top...but if something other than the BoV were being created, would that merit a Front Page post/article to help the community be aware and involved in the new development?
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  #5078  
Old October 10th, 2016, 10:18 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I appreciate the prompt response. I'll move forward then. Any suggestion on where we can try to "gain the support of the community"? Should that be a post somewhere where people vote? Maybe this is over the top...but if something other than the BoV were being created, would that merit a Front Page post/article to help the community be aware and involved in the new development?
I would say try to drum up support form map makers and competitive players. If you can get the guys that create maps on board and get the competitive guys excited to play on and test maps then the rest of the community will be easy. If I see a good looking map that some of the known competitive guys say is balanced then I'm hooked.

Side note for requirements...

Personally I'd like to see in the map summary the sets needed to build AND the footprint (inches or cm either way). The instructions that include footprint size are great for deciding if I have room to build it on or not on the smaller tables or if I need to make room on the main table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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  #5079  
Old October 10th, 2016, 11:00 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I think we should keep BoV, just adding new members and if need be tweak judging (but not submission/nomination) requirements to try and speed up the process. Also, maybe allow more public input from anyone who has played on a nominated map - I would rather have 100 people each give a reviews of 1 or 2 maps then 5 or 6 people give reviews on 5 or 6 maps - kinda make similar to open playtesting of C3V. I think anyone who plays at tournaments (real or online), playtests for C3V/C3G/HoSS, or runs home games semi-frequently should be able to contribute reviews - either public on a thread or PM to organizers/judges. I don't know how C3V takes public playtesting into consideration when doing yea or ney to vote, but a similar process could be used.

I'd be willing to review a few maps myself.
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  #5080  
Old October 10th, 2016, 11:43 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I've been a member of BOSS and have been making maps for a long time. I too can contribute on giving reviews and am currently working through all of our Ruins of Valhalla contributions. I really like that approach for new maps, then have people test them and find out which ones are truly balanced and tournament worthy.
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  #5081  
Old October 10th, 2016, 12:15 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
I think we should keep BoV, just adding new members and if need be tweak judging (but not submission/nomination) requirements to try and speed up the process. Also, maybe allow more public input from anyone who has played on a nominated map - I would rather have 100 people each give a reviews of 1 or 2 maps then 5 or 6 people give reviews on 5 or 6 maps - kinda make similar to open playtesting of C3V. I think anyone who plays at tournaments (real or online), playtests for C3V/C3G/HoSS, or runs home games semi-frequently should be able to contribute reviews - either public on a thread or PM to organizers/judges. I don't know how C3V takes public playtesting into consideration when doing yea or ney to vote, but a similar process could be used.

I'd be willing to review a few maps myself.
If you want a ton of reviews, why not do something like Rotten Tomatoes?

I've actually been kicking that idea around for a while. I love the BoV, but I do think it has always fallen short where public input is concerned. At the same time, I realize that too many people working on one thing can make it all sorts of crazy. So if you take a Rotten Tomatoes approach, I think you'd get the best of both worlds.

If you don't know how Rotten Tomatoes works, movies are given two scores based on a ton of reviews. One score is the critic score, which is what people usually look at. But there's also the public score, based on non-professional critic reviews. Used on a Heroscape map basis, that would mean that you could have a group of "professional" critics to review maps (determine if they're tournament worthy or broken, give particular insight, have some sort of threshold to make it "approved" by the group as a whole) while still allowing anyone to review a map. Then you could also have a system for "non-professional" reviewers to become "professional," kind of like the C3G is doing. If you want to be a "pro," you got to put in the work and prove you can do it.

The other thing I like about it is you could have several categories based on scores received. That way it's not a "make it or break it" scheme, cause there are some great maps (like Common Ground) that didn't make the BoV, and there are some maps in the BoV that due to metagame changes wouldn't be there today. With scores, you can see all the maps and decide what you want based on what you're doing (uber-competitive tourney vs just for fun great map).

Like I said, I've been kicking this idea around for a while. If there's interest in it I can share more details. I was intending on talking to people about it eventually anyway to see if there was interest (mainly after this NHSD season is over cause I've been 'Scaping myself out a bit too much these past couple weeks).
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  #5082  
Old October 10th, 2016, 12:52 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
I think we should keep BoV, just adding new members and if need be tweak judging (but not submission/nomination) requirements to try and speed up the process. Also, maybe allow more public input from anyone who has played on a nominated map - I would rather have 100 people each give a reviews of 1 or 2 maps then 5 or 6 people give reviews on 5 or 6 maps - kinda make similar to open playtesting of C3V. I think anyone who plays at tournaments (real or online), playtests for C3V/C3G/HoSS, or runs home games semi-frequently should be able to contribute reviews - either public on a thread or PM to organizers/judges. I don't know how C3V takes public playtesting into consideration when doing yea or ney to vote, but a similar process could be used.

I'd be willing to review a few maps myself.
If you want a ton of reviews, why not do something like Rotten Tomatoes?

I've actually been kicking that idea around for a while. I love the BoV, but I do think it has always fallen short where public input is concerned. At the same time, I realize that too many people working on one thing can make it all sorts of crazy. So if you take a Rotten Tomatoes approach, I think you'd get the best of both worlds.

If you don't know how Rotten Tomatoes works, movies are given two scores based on a ton of reviews. One score is the critic score, which is what people usually look at. But there's also the public score, based on non-professional critic reviews. Used on a Heroscape map basis, that would mean that you could have a group of "professional" critics to review maps (determine if they're tournament worthy or broken, give particular insight, have some sort of threshold to make it "approved" by the group as a whole) while still allowing anyone to review a map. Then you could also have a system for "non-professional" reviewers to become "professional," kind of like the C3G is doing. If you want to be a "pro," you got to put in the work and prove you can do it.

The other thing I like about it is you could have several categories based on scores received. That way it's not a "make it or break it" scheme, cause there are some great maps (like Common Ground) that didn't make the BoV, and there are some maps in the BoV that due to metagame changes wouldn't be there today. With scores, you can see all the maps and decide what you want based on what you're doing (uber-competitive tourney vs just for fun great map).

Like I said, I've been kicking this idea around for a while. If there's interest in it I can share more details. I was intending on talking to people about it eventually anyway to see if there was interest (mainly after this NHSD season is over cause I've been 'Scaping myself out a bit too much these past couple weeks).
In theory seems like a great idea...I'm officially interested. Not that I will have the time or qualifications here but just as a fan I could see this idea having some merit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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  #5083  
Old October 13th, 2016, 11:17 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I appreciate the prompt response. I'll move forward then. Any suggestion on where we can try to "gain the support of the community"? Should that be a post somewhere where people vote? Maybe this is over the top...but if something other than the BoV were being created, would that merit a Front Page post/article to help the community be aware and involved in the new development?
Okay, if it were me—which it isn't, so take my suggestions for what they are: just suggestions—here's what I would do:
  • Pick a few people to start with. The only criterion at this point should be people with interest and enthusiasm.
  • Start sending PMs to each other. Group PMs is a little bit of a PITA, because we don't have a proper reply-all function, but it's doable, and this is a short phase.
  • In these PMs, just talk about a rough plan for how to get started. What is the best way to harness the power of the community? Should you start with a poll to see what people think? What questions will people have for you, and what will your answers be? (Hint: first question is always "what are your goals?" So think about that one most of all. In particular, what do you want to do differently than the other groups?) What do you want your criteria to be for choosing maps, or is that a question you want to throw open to the community too? Etc.
  • Once you have a rough plan, start a new thread. Invite everyone to comment. Put up your poll, if that's what you decided. Post your goals, if you settled on some. Be prepared for people to be critical. Don't be defensive. Try to have answers.
  • If you want to keep your private PM group going, that's fine. There's absolutely value to having some behind-the-scenes discussion to make sure your core group presents a unified message. But be wary! Too much back-room goings-on defeats your purpose by alienating the community. See my sig for cautionary tales.
  • Also, whoever you think your core group consists of, be prepared to expand it. It's true that having a large group can be unwieldy and slow down decision making. But having too small a group risks insularity and short-sightedness. Again, see the sig.
  • Once you have a plan about what you want to accomplish and perhaps (at least roughly) how you want to accomplish it, then you can start talking about whether you want to request to take over the mantle of the existing BoV or start a new group.
    • If you think you want to take over the existing group, find a current member who seems willing to listen (like Dignan has been doing on this thread recently) and respectfully request to do so. Having a firm plan for how you plan to proceed, along with explicit rules for how to keep those in the old group who specifically want to stay, but also explicit rules for making sure everyone (old and new) either participates or steps aside for new blood, should go a long way towards making the existing BoV members comfortable that taking over from them is sensible.
    • Contrariwise, if you want to make a new group, discuss how to make that transition. Should all existing BoV maps be maps that are automatically pre-approved by the new group (hint: yes), or should they have to go through the new process themselves? (I suppose you could use the existing BoV maps to test out your process: if any pre-existing BoV map fails the process, the process is broken.) Will you ask (again, respectfully) for one or more of the existing members to "bless" your new group, to provide some sort of "passing of the torch" type sentiment? Or will you just burst onto the scene saying "we're the new group in town and we're awesome so just start using our maps"? (Hint: don't do that). There needs to be a reasonable plan on how to attract people to the new group and how to assure them the new group will have the same great quality as the old one.
  • Once you have all that down, it may be time to retire to a private forum to get some real work done. Again, learn the lessons of the past: although there is absolutely value in not conducting all your work in front of the public eye, you must balance that against being so insulated that the public distrusts what's going on back behind the curtain. You can give that up entirely and do everything completely in the public, but I don't think anyone really does all their work in the public fora; even the C3G and the SoV have some private areas, I believe. Just try to strke a balance.
  • Once you're ready with all that—and that's a lot!—then absolutely I would think a front page announcement is in order, and I would be very pleased to make that happen for you.

Also, BiggaBullfrog's ideas are pretty awesome too.

Anyhow, hopefully that's enough to get you started. And, again: I wish you luck. Keep the enthusiasm alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
You should not read this blog.

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  #5084  
Old October 14th, 2016, 12:59 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
By my count, there are 32 BoV maps (not counting alternate versions). If there really is a list somewhere that I'm just missing, please let me know.
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ead.php?t=5725

A must read for all 'Scapers!

Last edited by R˙chean; October 14th, 2016 at 01:45 AM. Reason: download search "bov map" gets the job done too + some
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  #5085  
Old October 14th, 2016, 06:13 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
By my count, there are 32 BoV maps (not counting alternate versions). If there really is a list somewhere that I'm just missing, please let me know.
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ead.php?t=5725
Excellent! Dunno how I missed that.

That list does in fact match my list, so that's nice. Next I think I'll work on doing a combo PDF of all the maps with a few touch-ups here and there. For instance, Arctic Divide doesn't have its name on the cover page. And Dance of the Dryads' PDF is on A4 instead of letter. And almost all of the final pages are blank and mostly useless. That sort of thing. I just put together a combo PDF of the 9 maps we're using at our tourney this year and did some of that stuff for those 9, but I think it would be interesting to have it done for all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
You should not read this blog.

Why I Left the C3V
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  #5086  
Old October 14th, 2016, 08:13 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I appreciate the wealth of knowledge you've shared @Xotli . We'll make sure to take into account everything you've said and take the necessary steps to make this successful.

EDIT:
Quote:
we don't have a proper reply-all function
Is there any way to update the site to incorporate this? Because I could see this being a very helpful tool.
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  #5087  
Old October 14th, 2016, 09:39 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Great post, Xotli. Lots of great guidance and sound advice.

For my two cents, I would recommend starting a similar, but new initiative. As I mentioned before, the BoV process puts a large burden on a smaller core of people. Back in the day, this practice was sustainable, but it has become clear in the past few years that it is not. Trust me, I have spent a lot of time trying to kickstart and keep things rolling within the ranks of the BoV. It is very difficult to maintain momentum with the current climate.

That said, I think a new system would be able to keep moving and keep people excited/interested. I like the idea of the system similar to Rotten Tomatoes. Depending on how it is implemented, it could be very interesting.

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  #5088  
Old October 14th, 2016, 09:52 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

@Xotli - I just read (OK, rather skimmed) your blog on Why you Left the C3V and your suggestion above seems somewhat in line bus also somewhat at odds with the reason you left. Anyway, although your suggestion above seems great, I would also like to see as much public reviews as possible, therefore whoever is in charge should publicly post nominations and maybe privately take reviews from everyone. I may be inclined to be an a board or something, as I was inspired by your blog that those who are best the lead are usually the last to seek leadership, and I feel I should be more involved in projects here (not that I really want the responsibility). I still think the Battlefields of Valhalla should be revived, and not a new project. Just to confirm then, are these still the current BOV judges (listed in the OP of this thread)? @1Mmirg , @Bengi , @Dignan , @fomox , @mad_wookiee , @RoninValentina

If so @Dignan and @mad_wookiee , and @fomox are the only really active members of this site, so I guess they should help pick some new judges and maybe make some new by-laws, again avoiding groupthink and being as open as possible, unlike some political candidates we have now

Also, shameless self promotion, but looking for mapmakers to contribute to my Herosape and Magic:AotP Cryptolith Map Contest

Last edited by lefton4ya; October 14th, 2016 at 12:01 PM. Reason: self spamming
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