C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

[Vydar_XLIII]

Originally Posted by dok

Louis Malone B- -> B+

Gotta say, I was confused for a second without his nickname in there. haha

[vegietarian18]

Great updates.

I still think Brute Gruts and Rygarn are each a tier too low. Rygarn is A, Brute Gruts are A-. Brute Gruts can unload with the offense of twice a Hydra for half the price. Granted, it's harder to do that than Hydra, but especially when paired with Rygarn they can be a lethal game-winning engine. I don't think you can win many cheese games with B+ figures and my Brute Grut army went 5-0 in VCheese 3.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Swaysil at C+? I suppose that there's a lot of synergies in VC pulling things around, but that feels low. If you've got 50 points left in your army, the only things I'd put ahead of her are the Marro Warriors and Me-burq-sa.

I certainly think she's better than Siiiv.

[boromir96]

Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince

Swaysil at C+? I suppose that there's a lot of synergies in VC pulling things around, but that feels low. If you've got 50 points left in your army, the only things I'd put ahead of her are the Marro Warriors and Me-burq-sa.

I certainly think she's better than Siiiv.

While that may be true in a vacuum, if you have 50 points left in your army and you can’t take Marro Warriors, you’ve built your army wrong. Spending 50 points on filler is just suboptimal army construction. (Marro Warriors are not filler, they just cost what a filler costs)

[quozl]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Great updates.

I still think Brute Gruts and Rygarn are each a tier too low. Rygarn is A, Brute Gruts are A-. Brute Gruts can unload with the offense of twice a Hydra for half the price. Granted, it's harder to do that than Hydra, but especially when paired with Rygarn they can be a lethal game-winning engine. I don't think you can win many cheese games with B+ figures and my Brute Grut army went 5-0 in VCheese 3.

Maybe show us all in VCheese4.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Originally Posted by boromir96

While that may be true in a vacuum, if you have 50 points left in your army and you can’t take Marro Warriors, you’ve built your army wrong. Spending 50 points on filler is just suboptimal army construction. (Marro Warriors are not filler, they just cost what a filler costs)

I'm sure there are armies at the B/B+ level where Swaysil is a positive addition. Swaysil also fits a clear role as clean-up. I'm not saying she's anywhere near the Marro 50 pointers, but she brings more to the table than any of her similarly ranked compatriots.

[Vydar_XLIII]

Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince

I'm sure there are armies at the B/B+ level where Swaysil is a positive addition. Swaysil also fits a clear role as clean-up. I'm not saying she's anywhere near the Marro 50 pointers, but she brings more to the table than any of her similarly ranked compatriots.

Worth noting that in a previous large change to the rankings (late 2021, I believe, I didn't check exactly when this was) dok overhauled the rankings. The effect being units trending significantly downward to split up the overpopulated B tiers and fill out the underpopulated C tiers.

What is a C+ unit today is likely a B unit before that overhaul. That might be where the confusion lies.

[Foudzing]

I kinda agree with Maklar, hard for me to comprehend how Arkmer is B, Ulginesh B- and Swaysil C+.

If you rank Arkmer higher than Ulginesh that means you value his utility outside of a Wizard build.
And as a standalone Swaysil looks equal at the very least, and is probably better than Arkmer.

Agree with most of the changes, some are actually changes I suggested years ago (Sneaks, Brimstone etc..).
Agree also with the Lao Xin up to B-, monk build is way too strong in a C+ environnement except if you go for weird counter like werewolf Lord lol.
And yes Lilja fits very well in a construct build, ability to take any small and medium with Boreos and immediately slam him with 3 attacks of 5 is very strong.

Ah and I'm still a big advocate for A Isamu (not A+).
To me the amount of games "turned" by Isamu are super super low, people just remember it well because it requires a big amount of luck with sucessive vanishes and it makes people remember.
Most of the time he kills like 20~30 points which is not enough to win the game and dies. So ye he killed more than his points, but he was still useless in a sense that if you didn't take him the result would end up the same.
In my opinion Marcu "turns" much more than twice this amount and hance is stronger than Isamu (and makes Wannok basically not existing for your army), I would take Marcu over 2 Isamus everyday of the week. and I'd rank Marcu higher than Isamu (but both in A tier I think).

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII

Worth noting that in a previous large change to the rankings (late 2021, I believe, I didn't check exactly when this was) dok overhauled the rankings. The effect being units trending significantly downward to split up the overpopulated B tiers and fill out the underpopulated C tiers.

What is a C+ unit today is likely a B unit before that overhaul. That might be where the confusion lies.

Probably. Fwiw (very very little), back when I was first testing Swaysil (I think Run Down was 9 or higher), I tested endgame scenarios against the Marro Warriors like a bajillions times, and she could be pretty tough on them. Marro Warriors definitely weren't considered A+ back then. Swaysil on her own in the endgame needs a bit of luck, but if you've got a couple speed bumps around the map left she can be pretty decisive.

Thinks she fits well in the B tier right now - maybe not, B-, everything in the B tier looks like it has some sort of synergy other than the big standalone heroes.

[dok]

OP updated.

Originally Posted by Foudzing

If you rank Arkmer higher than Ulginesh that means you value his utility outside of a Wizard build.

No, it just means I think Arkmer delivers better value in his best build, which is that wizard build.

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by dok

OP updated.

No, it just means I think Arkmer delivers better value in his best build, which is that wizard build.

Well to me the guy who delivers the best value in the wizard build is Ulginesh by a landmile.
Because well turns out playing two turns instead of one is good.
Try playing the Wizards elves without Ulginesh it's total crap even tho Arkmer has "good stats for his cost".

So if we take the best build for both units, which happens to be the exact same build, to me Ulginesh should be rated higher than Arkmer in that build and hance rated higher overall because it's their best build.

Same goes for Talingul and Constructs, for me Talingul should be the best rated unit of the build even above Boreos. Unless you argue some DKoV build with Boreos is better than the construct build.
All those "build enablers" units are the real strengh, not the units who profit from them.

To me it's logical that units you see 99% of time together like:
Grimnak - Heavies
Ulginesh - Arkmer
Xundar - Shadow Fiend
Kurrok - Fire Ele
Talingul - Boreos
etc... etc...
Should be at the same rank.

[dok]

I split a bunch of the ones you mention above, because as I've said many times, my primary standard here is the value for the points that card delivers in that card's best build. It doesn't mean Arkmer's best build doesn't include Ulginesh or vice versa, but Arkmer is a remarkable bargain for 50 points in that build.