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  #253  
Old April 4th, 2022, 10:31 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

I agree with you 100% that Alastair with 4th is not that good. I think I won my 4x400 Online Con championship game over dok because he tried to do too much with Alastair. It's better to use Drake with 4th because Drake is better at sitting in the startzone safely with Thorian Speed. Neither one is going to win you that many games though. Honestly Charos is probably winning you more just because he owns particular cleanup situations.

Alastair is good because of Knights, not because of 4th. I can give you a lot of impressive results for Alastair as A- with Knights.
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  #254  
Old April 4th, 2022, 10:33 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
I'm more convinced by Drake sotm results (appearance to day2 in cheese format is something) than Alastair results which are basically «won me a game thanks to my opponnent letting him go to my raelin and because I got lucky init switch.»
Really, replay that machup 10times, I'm pretty sure Alastair does not do **** in at least 7 games.
I've mostly said my piece here already and don't want to re-hash it too much, but I feel like this is a pretty uncharitable restating of what I tried to argue for regarding Alastair in a 4th build and so I wanted to respond.

My argument for Alastair's strength in that build is predominantly build on the 4th Mass army in a 4x400 tournament, since I play that format a ton and 400 points is a quite nice point total for Alastair (4th x4, Alastair), especially when many 4x400's these days limit you to either 20 or 16 figures, meaning that 4th x5 isn't always legal/viable.

Among the various matchups that you can run into in 4x400:
Grimnak, Nerak, Heavies x3 - Alastair is a reasonably strong deterrent to Grimnak chomping 4th at will, as 2x5 is gonna do some big damage to him and if you play Grimnak aggressively it's hard to avoid the risk of that. It's worth noting here that 2x5v5 does ~2.2 wounds, whereas 4x3v5 (what you'd get from a 4th WtF turn) does ~1.6 wounds on average, so in this case where you need to kill Grimnak an OM on Alastair does more damage than an OM on 4th (assuming, of course, Alastair can attack Grimnak).
Raelin, Q9, Rats x3 - You still probably lose, but Alastair gives you a chance to kill Q9 that you otherwise don't have if you can kill enough rats 1st.

And I do have fairly solid results with that army in 4x400, played against players at Gencon/ScapeCon/Online in 4x400 formats. It's true that I don't have links to any specific results (I rarely post battle reports online from live games) to back that up, so if you want to discount it for that reason feel free.

I would add 2 more things:
1) --Most-- people make mistakes in-game (myself obviously included), and having a figure that can capitalize on those mistakes is quite useful, even if --theoretically-- the mistake should have been avoidable. And Alastair can punish placement mistakes as well as almost any figure in the game.
2) Playing to increase variance in a matchup where you have a significantly < 50% chance to win is smart strategy, not just a 'lucky init switch'. For example, in the 4x400 matchup of 4th/Alastair into Q9/Raelin, I'm going to try and play that in a way that if I get a well-timed init with Alastair then I have a decent shot at him killing Q9 and if I fail I lose anyways. So in a 4x400 setting Alastair gives the 4th a way to drastically increase variance when they need it, something they really can never do on their own.
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  #255  
Old April 4th, 2022, 10:39 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I agree with you 100% that Alastair with 4th is not that good. I think I won my 4x400 Online Con championship game over dok because he tried to do too much with Alastair. It's better to use Drake with 4th because Drake is better at sitting in the startzone safely with Thorian Speed. Neither one is going to win you that many games though. Honestly Charos is probably winning you more just because he owns particular cleanup situations.
I'm curious then, do you think 4th shouldn't be played in the 4x400 format? Or that they are stronger at 4th x3, Drake instead of 4th x4, Alastair?

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Alastair is good because of Knights, not because of 4th. I can give you a lot of impressive results for Alastair as A- with Knights.
I've tried to think about that a lot, and I used to agree with it. But Matthias mostly convinced me that another squad of Knights is almost always more useful than Alastair (for similar reasoning to what has already been argued for at wanting more 4th instead of either Drake or Alastair).

Alastair definitely has more use with Knights as the figure count decreases; would you ever opt for him at 20-24 figures though over just having more knights?
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  #256  
Old April 4th, 2022, 11:09 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

I don't personally run 4th in 4x400 18 figures. My build when I won Online Con 4x400 was Knights, Rats/Braxas/Marros, Deathchasers/Raelin, and 10th/Marcus, and I pretty much stand by those as the best choices. If 4x400 allowed 20 or 24 figs I'd play 5x 4th. The problem with 4th is that playing 120 points short is bad. Alastair or Drake is basically playing short because their impact on the game is going to be like 30 points worth.

I'll concede that the very very best Knight builds don't use Alastair. He certainly helps against particular figures like Q9 or Nilf though, and helps with figure limits. Alastair and 1x Knights was a terrifying force in my 2018 RtW army. While Alastair isn't the very best partner for Knights, Knights are certainly a way better partner for him than 4th.
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  #257  
Old April 4th, 2022, 11:37 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I don't personally run 4th in 4x400 18 figures. My build when I won Online Con 4x400 was Knights, Rats/Braxas/Marros, Deathchasers/Raelin, and 10th/Marcus, and I pretty much stand by those as the best choices. If 4x400 allowed 20 or 24 figs I'd play 5x 4th. The problem with 4th is that playing 120 points short is bad. Alastair or Drake is basically playing short because their impact on the game is going to be like 30 points worth.
Those are definitely interesting choices, and clearly they worked well (I didn't remember what you had run in that event). I will say that one big benefit of this breakdown is you get to include MWs in an army, which I consider a weakness of the 4 armies I normally play (that I can't fit MWs into any of them), but on the flipside no Q9 feels like a hinderance given how strong he is into either the 4th or 10th (both of which I think are fairly common builds in 4x400).

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I'll concede that the very very best Knight builds don't use Alastair. He certainly helps against particular figures like Q9 or Nilf though, and helps with figure limits. Alastair and 1x Knights was a terrifying force in my 2018 RtW army.
I agree with this 100%.
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  #258  
Old April 4th, 2022, 12:01 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Alastair is obviously better than Drake sotm in a 400pts build, no one is denying that. The choice is between him and Drake v1 and I think he wins this one.

The initial statement was that there were no point total and figure limit were your best pick is Drake Sotm, and that you always better pick Alastair + Sam Brown, something I strongly disagree with.

Imo Drake V2 is as good as Alastair to go throught rats and hit Q9, because he can fly. But imo going for a kamikaze move like that is not how you should play the machup, I would go for rats and then Q9, and try to finish Q9 with Alastar or Drake in the lategame.
I agree with your variance thing but that's still not how I would play the machup, I would rather go for steady shots at Q9 and wait for him to do a «deathwalker defense roll».
I guess everyone has his way of play, but the more I play the more I think that the «play all OMs on one card until it's dead or have its firepower greatly reduced» is the best play 90% of the time (and that's why common squads are so strong) and there is a number of games I won that I shouldn't have won just because my opponent didn't apply this principle.

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  #259  
Old April 4th, 2022, 05:18 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Tho to me you are basically paying 110pts just for the threat effect cause Alastair is really bottom tier in late game.
The end game isn't his forte, but I wouldn't call him bottom tier. With overextend, he can catch up to range or target multiple figures. The ability to close the distance and pick his target can create an OM nightmare for your opponent.

Modern maps are less wide open than their predecessors. This helps Alister because he's got more places to hide while he threatens. Conversely, SotM Drake is subtly nerfed since there are fewer maps with little cover where you can just plop Drake where you want safely.

SotM Drake is buffed at 16/18 figures compared to 24.

My initial gut was Alister, Sam Brown. Admittedly it's been a while since I've played with or against 4th with any consistency. The more I think, the more I start to lean towards SotM Drake, but what do I know.
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  #260  
Old April 5th, 2022, 05:42 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
Unsurprisingly, I didn't see a single 4th + Alastair result (not that I checked old local tourney results, but I imagine the trend would continue).
I think the year that Mattser won with Q9/Vydar Ranged, spider played 5x Mass and Alastair and did not make day 2. Make of that what you will.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #261  
Old April 6th, 2022, 03:25 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
Unsurprisingly, I didn't see a single 4th + Alastair result (not that I checked old local tourney results, but I imagine the trend would continue).
I think the year that Mattser won with Q9/Vydar Ranged, spider played 5x Mass and Alastair and did not make day 2. Make of that what you will.
Interesting. Do you have any thoughts on Drake SotM as a figure?
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  #262  
Old April 7th, 2022, 09:07 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Outside of Cleanup for Valiant Mass, I don't think he has many uses, but that's a pretty good use. You guys already brought up the relevant times that high hexes and point totals were a thing. At 520, 5x Mass and SotM drake is good. If we want to get blasphemous, Captain America adds way more for a little bit more points. 4x Mass and Cap at 500 even almost fits in 16 hexes.

When it comes to something like General Wars, I'm not even convinced that Mass and SotM Drake is the best Jandar build anymore, especially with the maps that have been used the last 5 years or so. I'd say that X Knights of Weston + Gilbert and Eldgrim is better, depending on hex limits and point totals.

I'm still thinking a qualified A-, if 4th are still A's. Which basically means, get more Mass when possible.

Cap is so good he makes an argument for himself and the Mass to go back to A+. In some weird world where we play cheese and use Marvel.

Charos is kind of hovering in that B+/A- range, in part because he's decent with Greenscales too. I'd say Alastair is a B+, and little drake is too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; April 7th, 2022 at 09:12 PM. Reason: mind you, I haven't competed in quite some time and when I did I won with Orcs
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  #263  
Old April 9th, 2022, 08:42 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Outside of Cleanup for Valiant Mass, I don't think he has many uses, but that's a pretty good use. You guys already brought up the relevant times that high hexes and point totals were a thing. At 520, 5x Mass and SotM drake is good. If we want to get blasphemous, Captain America adds way more for a little bit more points. 4x Mass and Cap at 500 even almost fits in 16 hexes.

When it comes to something like General Wars, I'm not even convinced that Mass and SotM Drake is the best Jandar build anymore, especially with the maps that have been used the last 5 years or so. I'd say that X Knights of Weston + Gilbert and Eldgrim is better, depending on hex limits and point totals.

I'm still thinking a qualified A-, if 4th are still A's. Which basically means, get more Mass when possible.

Cap is so good he makes an argument for himself and the Mass to go back to A+. In some weird world where we play cheese and use Marvel.

Charos is kind of hovering in that B+/A- range, in part because he's decent with Greenscales too. I'd say Alastair is a B+, and little drake is too.
Thanks for chiming in; I always appreciate your insight!

Yes, Cap is pretty busted. I think the power rankings look quite a bit different in a Marvel-legal world, which is why I didn't include the Marvel units in my rankings.

It's hard to say between Knights and 4th. They're both really strong, but Knights probably do have the edge overall (although I'd definitely rather have 4th into the 10th/Zelrig build that used to float around).

Alastair at B+ is interesting. I don't think I agree; Overextend is really good. However, he isn't really the best option for any build, which definitely is an argument for him to be B+.

I think Drake RotV probably deserves a B+; B is likely too low. I'll most likely bump him up.
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  #264  
Old May 3rd, 2022, 02:01 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

interesting, doesn't seem like much has changed in the rankings over the years. Guess it makes sense given that nothing new comes out anymore.

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