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  #145  
Old October 11th, 2018, 02:57 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I think the design is pretty decent, but I don't like it much for that miniature. The miniature is obviously a mage, and that's not really represented in the design. I also think we're just about running out of creative ways of having Evil Eyes, and I'm not a fan of it on a two-eyed figure.

Just my . The miniature is great and I think you're close to hitting on something really good.
I think I'm inclined to agree here. Maybe drop Evil Eye and add in some short range special attack that is something "magey" and I think you're looking pretty good.

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  #146  
Old October 11th, 2018, 02:58 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I think the design is pretty decent, but I don't like it much for that miniature. The miniature is obviously a mage, and that's not really represented in the design. I also think we're just about running out of creative ways of having Evil Eyes, and I'm not a fan of it on a two-eyed figure.

Just my . The miniature is great and I think you're close to hitting on something really good.
I'm largely having the same sentiment. I've considered putting a Sharwin Wildborn-style spin on the second power and renaming it "Arcane Protection," but I'm not convinced yet that the problem isn't with the design itself rather than the theming.

The other main avenue that I'm considering is exchanging the defensive power for 4-5 range and a Sword of Reckoning ability to boost his attack in melee, but I think that defensive powers are a key theme for Samurai designs and don't want to just create a variation of Kaemon Awa.

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I think I'm inclined to agree here. Maybe drop Evil Eye and add in some short range special attack that is something "magey" and I think you're looking pretty good.
The idea of a Special Attack is interesting. I would probably go for a Warden 816-style situation where the normal attack is ranged and the SA is a stronger melee attack to distinguish the design more from Kaemon Awa, but I'll have to think about that.
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  #147  
Old October 11th, 2018, 06:41 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

Awesome figure! I love the samurai, but I do fear the proposed Aura of Terror. It's going to mostly affect melee attackers and the samurai are already very good against melee. It would be a fun synergy to play with, but in making a strong matchup stronger, it could be not so fun to play against.
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  #148  
Old October 11th, 2018, 09:03 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmon View Post
Awesome figure! I love the samurai, but I do fear the proposed Aura of Terror. It's going to mostly affect melee attackers and the samurai are already very good against melee. It would be a fun synergy to play with, but in making a strong matchup stronger, it could be not so fun to play against.
That's a fair point, but I think it helps that the Samurai themselves are almost guaranteed to suffer the same attack nerf. Oda should do fairly well with some Izumi Samurai as guards, but he brings their attack down to an abysmal 1, which makes turns spent repositioning them far less effective. The Kozuke fair better with 4 attack, but their 3 defense won't last terribly long, even if the attackers are in Aura of Terror, and the Tagawa Samurai will struggle a lot more to quickly get their kills when starting with 2 attack.

I also think that it'll be somewhat difficult to manage in practice, since unlike Tomoe Gozen, Oda doesn't have any practical movement synergies to help him out of a bind. Of course, I could always be off-base here, but I think that there are some notable downsides to Oda that stop him from being a straight buff.

The point of melee match-ups does give me pause in considering a ranged attack (normal or special), though. The Samurai can make for some great guards, and letting him truly use them as a screen or attempt to kite enemies might be problematic. I'm still toying around with some variation of Evil Eye Defense/Arcane Riposte for him, but I like the idea of only letting him counter ranged attacks to distinguish him from the rest of the Samurai.
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  #149  
Old October 11th, 2018, 09:15 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

The name: while I like seeing homage to Oda Nobunaga on the forums, the name is so on the nose that it would prevent anyone ever designing a unit meant to be one of Japan’s most successful warlords, and that’s not a design space I want to see completely blocked off just yet. Someone with better knowledge of the language can suggest an alternative.

The powers: Use caution when designing significant de-buffs on Bonding units. One of the early cases of the SoV rejecting a unit because it was too powerful used a nasty reduction of attack and defense, and the unit bonded with the Arrow Gruts on top of that. I’m not saying you shouldn’t pursue this avenue- it’s a significantly less powerful aura and the samurai ain’t no Arrow Gruts. Just proceed with caution, and test it thoroughly. The biggest issue I see might not be power, but that it just wouldn’t be fun. Maybe limit it to Common figures or reduce the range to a couple spaces or both?

Like superfrog, I’m not crazy about the name “Evil Glare Protection,” for the same reasons. I very much like the power, and the miniature has that blue energy around it’s hand, so why not (as you suggest) re-theme is at Arcane or Demonic or some other magical Riposte?

As for switching up his range and defensive power, I’d encourage you to pursue the ranged counterstrike and a range of 1 for his own attacks. Test thoroughly with Tagawa Samurai Archers + Raelin, though.

Paizo lists this miniature as Large rather than Medium, so he’ll probably bigger than a ‘Scape Medium 5 when it’s in-hand.
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  #150  
Old October 11th, 2018, 09:42 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
The name: while I like seeing homage to Oda Nobunaga on the forums, the name is so on the nose that it would prevent anyone ever designing a unit meant to be one of Japan’s most successful warlords, and that’s not a design space I want to see completely blocked off just yet. Someone with better knowledge of the language can suggest an alternative.

The powers: Use caution when designing significant de-buffs on Bonding units. One of the early cases of the SoV rejecting a unit because it was too powerful used a nasty reduction of attack and defense, and the unit bonded with the Arrow Gruts on top of that. I’m not saying you shouldn’t pursue this avenue- it’s a significantly less powerful aura and the samurai ain’t no Arrow Gruts. Just proceed with caution, and test it thoroughly. The biggest issue I see might not be power, but that it just wouldn’t be fun. Maybe limit it to Common figures or reduce the range to a couple spaces or both?

Like superfrog, I’m not crazy about the name “Evil Glare Protection,” for the same reasons. I very much like the power, and the miniature has that blue energy around it’s hand, so why not (as you suggest) re-theme is at Arcane or Demonic or some other magical Riposte?

As for switching up his range and defensive power, I’d encourage you to pursue the ranged counterstrike and a range of 1 for his own attacks. Test thoroughly with Tagawa Samurai Archers + Raelin, though.

Paizo lists this miniature as Large rather than Medium, so he’ll probably bigger than a ‘Scape Medium 5 when it’s in-hand.
I'm not overly fond of the name Oda Nobunaga, I just have poorno knowledge of Japanese and couldn't think of a good substitute. Since this sculpt is a demon instead of a human, it'll have to hail from a planet other than Earth anyway, so I'm very open to suggestions.

I assume that by bonding you mean Kato? I'm going to run a couple of games with the two of them in a massive army, but since it's always taking a turn with Oda instead of one of the other Samurai, I don't believe it should be a huge issue. I agree that the bigger concern is probably going to be fun rather than balance, especially in Samurai builds. If the aura had to be nerfed, I wouldd lean towards making it only affect Common figures, but that would then exclude most of the Samurai.

How do you feel about the ranged counterstrike extending to adjacent Samurai units? That was one of the original bases for the design, although I've come to feel that Aura of Terror is more defining. If I keep the ranged counterstrike, I'll definitely rename it to Arcane Defense/Protection or the like, but I'm not sure if letting the power also affect adjacent Samurai feels too much like a "band-aid" for them. I'd welcome more input on that.

Thanks for catching the size. Until I can get the miniature in my hands, I'll playtest him as a large single-space hero to be safe.

EDIT: For the sake of convenience, here's a minor update to the card to rename Evil Glare Protection to Arcane Protection and take a better guess at the size.


Last edited by Astroking112; October 12th, 2018 at 01:20 PM.
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  #151  
Old October 11th, 2018, 09:55 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

I know the nod to Akumaken is deliberate, but it feels a little derivative nonetheless. I'm not a fan of a reuse of the samurai-in-a-scary-mask theme, without more justification than I'm seeing on this card.

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  #152  
Old October 11th, 2018, 09:55 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

I do mean Kato. Not nearly as commonplace in the tourney as Arrow Gruts, I know, but always something to consider. Nerfing the aura to only Common figures would run the risk of overpowering the Samurai Unique Squads, but in his current form, I’d worry more about the Common Tagawa Archers. Pod up around Raelin and Oda, and you have an anti-range ranged force that can turn away melee forces too. I quite like the ranged counterstrike extending to other samurai (it’s certainly no more powerful than Torin with Minions of Utgar or Phantom Knights), if it can be balanced. Aura of Terror is neat too, and I’d love to see it in some form- maybe re-themed, and there are a few dials to turn if the combination is too punishing, as we said.

It feels less like a band-aid and more like an investment in them. Some customs can feel a lot like band-aids, and some are, in really off-putting ways. But a lot of official units shore up the weaknesses of other official units- Sir Gilbert, for one- and a good many customs do this well. Telling them apart isn’t always easy. It doesn’t hurt that Oda’s defense of 3 means you can just as easily target him as another adjacent Samurai.
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  #153  
Old October 11th, 2018, 10:44 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/10/18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I know the nod to Akumaken is deliberate, but it feels a little derivative nonetheless. I'm not a fan of a reuse of the samurai-in-a-scary-mask theme, without more justification than I'm seeing on this card.
Thematically, I think that it makes sense that Akumaken's mask would've been based off of the legends of demons and oni, albeit this design will admittedly be from a different planet. I think that the thematic link is still strong, though, and since I was already designing a figure that decreases attack, it makes more sense to me to acknowledge the link directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
I do mean Kato. Not nearly as commonplace in the tourney as Arrow Gruts, I know, but always something to consider. Nerfing the aura to only Common figures would run the risk of overpowering the Samurai Unique Squads, but in his current form, I’d worry more about the Common Tagawa Archers. Pod up around Raelin and Oda, and you have an anti-range ranged force that can turn away melee forces too. I quite like the ranged counterstrike extending to other samurai (it’s certainly no more powerful than Torin with Minions of Utgar or Phantom Knights), if it can be balanced. Aura of Terror is neat too, and I’d love to see it in some form- maybe re-themed, and there are a few dials to turn if the combination is too punishing, as we said.

It feels less like a band-aid and more like an investment in them. Some customs can feel a lot like band-aids, and some are, in really off-putting ways. But a lot of official units shore up the weaknesses of other official units- Sir Gilbert, for one- and a good many customs do this well. Telling them apart isn’t always easy. It doesn’t hurt that Oda’s defense of 3 means you can just as easily target him as another adjacent Samurai.
Thanks for the extended thoughts! I was mostly concerned about the Unique Squads and Kaemon, but with Raelin I could see the TSA being an even better choice. I'll make sure to run plenty of tests with that combo to ensure that nothing's broken. I do intend to also run at least one to two tests with Kato and Oda in a tournament setting, but 210 points doesn't leave much room for other Samurai, so I'm not expecting as much there.

I agree that some units feel a lot better than others in how they address weaknesses. One of my main concerns with this design is making it feel like too much of a fix instead of also being an interesting unit on its own rights. I'm also slightly concerned that he might end up feeling too similar to Torin due to Arcane Protection, but I hope that Aura of Terror is enough to keep the two distinct.
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  #154  
Old October 16th, 2018, 07:16 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/16/18: Demon Samurai]

I took Oda Nobunaga Tero Akuma's second power, Arcane Protection, back to the drawing board to try and fix the thematic disconnect from the rest of the design. I still wanted it to achieve something similar mechanically, but this new version should evoke a demon punishing opponents much more than one protecting its allies.


As always, any feedback is welcome. I'm particularly curious if the new name ("Terror Demon") properly strengthens the connection to Akumaken and if Burning Spite conveys the theme of a mage adequately (along with whether it clashes with the overall design, of course).
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  #155  
Old October 16th, 2018, 08:12 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/16/18: Demon Samurai]

This is a lot better. I'm still skeptical that him also protecting adjacent figures fits the theme as well as it could. But it is a lot better. I'm curious what others think.

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  #156  
Old October 16th, 2018, 08:20 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 10/16/18: Demon Samurai]

About the name, "Tero" isn't really traditional Japanese-y. It's literally "terror" modified to fit in the Japanese alphabet, and the meaning has more to do with modern "terror" (as in terrorism) than what you're going for, I think. If you want the more traditional word, that would be "osore," ”shingai," or "kowa" could work too. And while I'm on the subject, "Akuma" is okay, but with Akumaken in the mix I think it could stand to be a bit more unique (though that may just be me, and I don't even think it's a huge deal, just worth mentioning). Personally, I'd suggest "Masha Shingai" for the name, meaning "evil being" and "terror." Or "Shuten Douji," who is one of the more famous individual oni (if you want to name it after something, though I don't think he would work with samurai), or any mix thereof that makes you happy.

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