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  #49  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:43 PM
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Clarissimus Clarissimus is offline
 
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Call me crazy, but has anyone considered limiting the number of rounds for which the game can go on? You know, like they do in pretty much every official published scenario?
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  #50  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:44 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Why were you concerned about PD on a single elimination event? A win is a win. The PD just helps break ties.
Because I was behind and as soon as the clock struck 12, I was going to lose, so I had to do something to change that! It didn't matter how many points I was beat by, only that I was down in points and time was running out!

But that has nothing to do with the PD discussion. we are talking about the validity of choosing PD as our standard. As an alternative to the DCI points algorythm. The reason for this is to create a relatively fair tourney system that any kid can take back to his hometown and conduct without the need for software or or other supplies.
Correct....my argument was not about using the PD system, rather I was trying to support my proposition to increase the amount of time for each match on the second day.

I am in favor of using the PD system despite it's inherent flaws.
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  #51  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by lonewolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by damja
Again, that might be a bit too extreme especially with Sir Gilbert armies or Reaver armies.
How about a Gladiatron/Blastatron army! I had 8 units to move each turn and 4 to attack with! ( I guess I shouldn't be complaining!!)
Good point, especially on Spring Thaw. Good god! I played against a Blast/Glad army w/Gilbert talk about a slow moving game!

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  #52  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by damja
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Originally Posted by lonewolf
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Originally Posted by R˙chean
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Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
To me, it is like removing Welfare because of the people who abuse the system. What about the people who genuinely need it? You would be punishing the people who follow the rules to get at the people who bend/break the rules. It just doesn't work for me...
And I still contest that it is the perception of losing players that thier opponent was abusing the rule. I don't think abuse is actually occurring.

So on a slightly different note.

In my Game with Lonewolf, when my Airborne dropped I placed two of them behind ruins out of harms way. Why? 1.) so that they might live to fight another round. But more importantly 2. ) so that I would not lose those 110 points.

Am I a bad sport for protecting my point value on the board?
Nope, I would have done the same thing! That is the inherent Risk/Reward in playing the AE. The very same thing caused Nwo-Jedi to not make the second day. You made the roll, he didn't, either way I think it was completely fair and part of the game and part of the risk of playing that particular unit!
Yet another reason why I dislike the Hasbro scoring system and prefer partial points for squads being killed, but that is another argument. Let's try to resolve this one first....

I really think the 3, 2, 1 system works well. The 4, 2, 1 "punishes" slower players/armies a little too much. If we are concerned about time, we could use chess clocks set to 25 minutes for each player and if time runs out that player loses. Again, that might be a bit too extreme especially with Sir Gilbert armies or Reaver armies.
Chess clocks don't work because there are too many things that an opponent does while your clock is running that he could use to reduce your time. imagine a player that is slow to figure up bonuses when olling defence dice or meticulously counts out every possible place for his rats to scatter to over and over again.

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  #53  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Why were you concerned about PD on a single elimination event? A win is a win. The PD just helps break ties.
Exactly!

I've just read thru this thread and many people still seemed to be hung up on PD. I really don't think about PD when I play - if I need to engage or sacrifice a figure to help me win the game - that is what I do. I don't let PD stop me -or in other words - it doesn't change my strategy or play.

Just play to win and everything else will fall in place.

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  #54  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:53 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Why were you concerned about PD on a single elimination event? A win is a win. The PD just helps break ties.
Exactly!

I've just read thru this thread and many people still seemed to be hung up on PD. I really don't think about PD when I play - if I need to engage or sacrifice a figure to help me win the game - that is what I do. I don't let PD stop me -or in other words - it doesn't change my strategy or play.

Just play to win and everything else will fall in place.
The announcer says there is 5 minutes left in the game. It is your turn and you are down in PD by 90 points. The opponent has 1 KRAV at height and you only have blastatrons to attack with. Do you continue to shoot at the rats between you and the KRAV or do you move the Blastatrons out to a spot where they can shoot at the KRAV and take a chance that they whiff?

Doesn't sound like a tough question to me. Keep shooting the rats and you lose on VP. Take a chance on a risky move because time is running out and at least give yourself a chance at winning.

Same situation and I have 15 minutes more left in the game....I know I have time to finish off the rats and then get a Gladiatron adjacent to the KRAV and take care of them later.

My point is this: If time is running out and you are losing in the VP in a single elimination game, you HAVE to do something to give yourself a chance to win. Even if it is something that is risky or otherwise a bad play.
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  #55  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
We are talking about the validity of choosing PD as our standard. As an alternative to the DCI points algorythm. The reason for this is to create a relatively fair tourney system that any kid can take back to his hometown and conduct without the need for software or or other supplies.
And I totally agree with this sentiment as well.



It is a Catch-22 either way. Fair for all or available for all.

Again, I would like to reiterate to GBob the feelings of the whole community that your support of the Heroscape game knows no boundries and we are thankful for it.

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  #56  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:58 PM
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actually something similar happened to me and happyjosiah at our last tournament. I had krug left, and he had a roman on the range glyph and one AE figure on extreme height. Krug couldn't reach the AE (I hated that map). I ended up finding a place where the AE couldn't see me. I had more points left on the board thanks to krug, so happyjosiah could have either stayed on height and lost since I had more points, or jump down and try to come get me. He decided to come down and died in the attempt. That map was very annoying because there were 4 spaces on towers in the middle of the map. All 4 spaces were unreachable unless you could fly, and you couldn't be adjacent to any of the figures cause they were too high. It was a standpoint and if I couldn't find a place to hide it would have been impossible for me to win the game. It sucked.
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  #57  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codeman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Why were you concerned about PD on a single elimination event? A win is a win. The PD just helps break ties.
Exactly!

I've just read thru this thread and many people still seemed to be hung up on PD. I really don't think about PD when I play - if I need to engage or sacrifice a figure to help me win the game - that is what I do. I don't let PD stop me -or in other words - it doesn't change my strategy or play.

Just play to win and everything else will fall in place.
The announcer says there is 5 minutes left in the game. It is your turn and you are down in PD by 90 points. The opponent has 1 KRAV at height and you only have blastatrons to attack with. Do you continue to shoot at the rats between you and the KRAV or do you move the Blastatrons out to a spot where they can shoot at the KRAV and take a chance that they whiff?

Doesn't sound like a tough question to me. Keep shooting the rats and you lose on PD. Take a chance on a risky move because time is running out and at least give yourself a chance at winning.

Same situation and I have 15 minutes more left in the game....I know I have time to finish off the rats and then get a Gladiatron adjacent to the KRAV and take care of them later.

My point is this: If time is running out and you are losing in the PD in a single elimination game, you HAVE to do something to give yourself a chance to win. Even if it is something that is risky or otherwise a bad play.
You must be a little confused. We are discussing PD not VP's. Obviously in a single elimination event do what you need to win etc. But in a Swiss style event with PD used to break ties, just play for a win and allow your PD record to break your ties. Two players with the same record would need to be ranked and in PD more value is given to agressive play styles.... (which have an added benifit of speeding up play!! )

“Heroscapers is too old for that crap.”
~IamBatman


"Hahahah! You losers! I told you so!!"
~Clancampbell
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  #58  
Old August 20th, 2007, 05:03 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
You must be a little confused. We are discussing PD not VP's. Obviously in a single elimination event do what you need to win etc. But in a Swiss style event with PD used to break ties, just play for a win and allow your PD record to break your ties. Two players with the same record would need to be ranked and in PD more value is given to agressive play styles.... (which have an added benifit of speeding up play!! )
I usually am confused!

I agree that we are not talking about the same point! I think I am using PD interchangeably with VP and that is causing confusion. Substitute VP for PD in all of my previous posts!!!!
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  #59  
Old August 20th, 2007, 05:08 PM
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R˙chean R˙chean is offline
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swiss works just fine; we didn't play swiss in the Big Tourney ( for obvious reasons) and the big tourney is where most of the "stalling" complaints are coming from.

We used PD for that tourney, yet we are championing it as a way to speed things up when it clearly did not. I don’t get it.

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  #60  
Old August 20th, 2007, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
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Originally Posted by funrun
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Originally Posted by Grungebob
If you sit down to the table, and you only get 20 minutes of playtime, because your opponent used much more time and got 40 minutes, then he has an unfair and excessively indulgent advantage.
Total game time used per player has zero influence on winning Heroscape because each player plays the same number of order markers and hence gets equal gameplay opportunities (so long as each player finishes on the same order marker number.) For example, Player 1 turn 1 can take 60 minutes and player 2 turn 1 can take 5 seconds, but both players had the same number of turns and thus the game is balanced. This is one of the beauties of the Heroscape game mechanics
It is the limiting of the other players quality of turns that is the issue. Again if you indulge yourself and take way too much time on your turn trying to analyse every contingency, and your opponent does not do this, you are gaining an advantage and abusing the system unfairly. This is what happens when a player is stalling.. It is forcing the game to points and playing only to get a vp win. It is something that is talked about in most other tourneys, it has just never become a problem until this year. I am surprised at the folks who take such long turns and think that it is ok. At some point you should say hey! I'm taking twice as long to finish my turns as anybody else and am constantly going to the clock.
"Quality of turn" is never a concept I had thought of because this is something that each player has complete control over for their own turn. It is your own fault if you make hasty bad decisions! And it is bad sportsmanship to accuse the winner of your game of stalling because you played so fast that you didn't think things through.

If a player plays at the same pace whether they are winning or losing then they aren't stalling. Stalling is getting ahead and then slowing up with the intent of winning by letting time run out. I guess we just disagree on what stalling is.

I also think there is a lot of exaggeration being written here. I don't think anyone got 40 vs 20 min of playing time nor took twice as long per turn as opponents. Nor does any of this matter when each person gets the same number of order markers.

I understand the PD is used to break same-record ties, but there are a lot of same records in our events and hence PD is very important all day long. Rewarding players who obliterate their opponents by points is not about rewarding people for beating quality players. +500 point obliteration only occurs when a strong player plays a very weak player, not when 2 very good players face off, as my original post here explains better. I feel that the 4-1 player who wins over another 4-1 should be the one who beat the next best player there, not the one who beat a newbie and got +500 points. PD favors the 4-1 who got the easy win against the newb.

I certainly don't want longer games, but 1 hour for 500 pts vs 400 is the most obvious reason for games not going over time limit so much last year.

I do agree we need 5-10 min breaks regardless of all other decisions on format, points, and time.

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