ARV Contest Thread

[rednax]

Hi, judges! I was curious when we could expect to hear feedback on maps, either from you or from various tournament-goers. I'm very curious how my maps fared, but of course, no rush!

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by rednax

Hi, judges! I was curious when we could expect to hear feedback on maps, either from you or from various tournament-goers. I'm very curious how my maps fared, but of course, no rush!

Our decision is to post official reviews AFTER we've all voted on a maps tournament worthiness. In the past we've given hasty reviews after just a Game or two and then later changed our minds after further playtesting, and we want our reviews publicly to mirror how we voted in private. Also keep in mind there are 10 maps and potentially more going through the workshop thread so this process usually takes the next 3 months or so...which is why we only plan on doing 2-3 contests a year due to the time it takes in between to playtest and workshop all the maps. We will create a Reviews Thread when we are ready so look out for that.

That said, there's nothing wrong with a judge to post his initial thoughts on a map prior to playtesting. So if you'd like some initial feedback (nothing final) I/we could still chime in.

[rednax]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Our decision is to post official reviews AFTER we've all voted on a maps tournament worthiness. In the past we've given hasty reviews after just a Game or two and then later changed our minds after further playtesting, and we want our reviews publicly to mirror how we voted in private. Also keep in mind there are 10 maps and potentially more going through the workshop thread so this process usually takes the next 3 months or so...which is why we only plan on doing 2-3 contests a year due to the time it takes in between to playtest and workshop all the maps. We will create a Reviews Thread when we are ready so look out for that.

That said, there's nothing wrong with a judge to post his initial thoughts on a map prior to playtesting. So if you'd like some initial feedback (nothing final) I/we could still chime in.

I completely understand that this is a time-consuming process and I greatly appreciate your taking time to do this. That being said, I would be completely fine with you offering initial feedback on my maps, publicly or privately. And if your feedback changes after later testing, then that's fine too.

[Dad_Scaper]

I went over to the display thread to look at Rednax's maps and I noticed that the maps don't have the names of their creators, unless those names happened to be in the graphic display. When you guys get a chance, I think it would be a valuable addition to the display thread to add the names of the creators. I know it's there if I click the links, but I just wanted to scroll through and it would have been nice to see those nods to the creators.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I went over to the display thread to look at Rednax's maps and I noticed that the maps don't have the names of their creators, unless those names happened to be in the graphic display. When you guys get a chance, I think it would be a valuable addition to the display thread to add the names of the creators. I know it's there if I click the links, but I just wanted to scroll through and it would have been nice to see those nods to the creators.

You bet, thanks for mentioning that! Most of the names should be in the map image but I'll add them in either way.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Background

Spoiler Alert!

My second map came about much more organically rather than being inspired by any thing in particular. When discussing the initial map contest rules concerning how only one TJ or RttFF set could be used, I came to realize that I had been using the fact that I own two sets of everything as a crutch. So I wanted to challenge myself a bit by limiting myself to using just one TJ set on that first map, knowing tournament directors would be much happier if they could make their own limited number of TJ sets go farther. After being very happy with the results of the first map, I set out to see if I could also make a map using just one RttFF set. I then thought it would also be good for tournament directors if I could make use of the little used Marvel set.

Comments on my map submission from the last map contest about the use of road tiles had me wanting to only use the road tiles for the maps foundation in this one. Knowing I would need a lot of land tiles to cover up all the road, concrete, and asphalt tiles I had meant the master set used would have to be the RotV as it has the most tiles to work with. With those three sets in mind I just started seeing what I could come up with and it resulted in what would end up as a direct opposite of my first map. Where the Jungle Cave was a valley, the Island Wellspring was mountain and a true king of the hill battle was born.

After the map was completed, I really started to fall in love with the backstory and theme of the map. Then I saw the 'tip' about making sure double based figures could claim glyphs and knew that just wasn't going to work for me here. So while I don't expect this map to take home the prize, I still wanted to share it with others.

Island Wellspring Bio– The sea had always been an important resource for her people, those who lived among the chain of islands off the coast of Haukeland, but for Valannette it held a particularly strong draw. She was taking her own little fishing boats to sea alone when other children were playing games, and became the youngest cargo ship captain her island home had ever produced. When war came to Valhalla, Capt. Val feared what Utgar might do to her beloved sea should he emerge victorious, so she began supporting any forces that opposed him with timely shipments of supplies to the front lines of coastal fronts in the war. Soon enough she was ferrying troops about as well, quickly moving warriors up and down the coastline to where they were needed most, even landing some troops behind enemy lines as part of a daring surprise attack.

Soon enough war had erupted on the seas themselves, but Mother Nature still remained the greater danger. A summer storm blew in while she was far from land, catching her crew up in a fight with a hurricane while on open water. Capt. Val isn’t quite sure how she survived, considering her ship was completely lost, but she found herself washed up on a tiny little knob of land. After looking around she knew where she was, it was just a sliver of land sticking up above the sea that she had passed a dozen times before. Too small to build any meaningful structures on, and seemingly lacking anything of value, it had long ago been regulated to the role of a landmark for those who sailed the seas and nothing more. Truly surprised she was then to discover two fresh water wells at the top of the island. Drinking deeply, and thankful she would at least not die of thirst, a new even more startling revelation came to her. After drinking from a well, the winds themselves seemed to change directions and intensity. Hope sprung forth and Capt. Val fell a few of the trees growing on the island to begin building a crude raft. All the while she continued to drink from the well and experiment with the power it bestowed. Once she felt she was ready to launch, she rigged up a simple sail, filled her flask full of the magical water, and used her new found control over the winds themselves to push her raft out to sea and towards safe harbor.

The journey was harrowing and when she first spotted another ship she rejoiced, thinking she would be saved. But as the ship drew near, her glee turned to fear, for the ship was manned by orcs and its flag flew the sigil of Utgar. Desperate to get away she used her control over the wind to turn back the ship, throwing it off course while she blew her own sail in the opposite direction. While it worked initially, her flask soon ran empty and the orc captain had continued to turn his ship around and give chase. With her power over the winds having evaporated with the water, she was soon overtaken and captured. The orc captain was clever enough to know she was responsible for the strange actions of the winds and tortured her endlessly seeking answers to his questions. While Capt. Val was as tough a sea captain there was, she eventually broke and revealed what she had discovered. The orc captain then changed course and set sail for a mainland port Utgar’s forces controlled. Her captivity didn’t last long once they had reach land though, as Einar’s forces attacked and captured the port soon after, but the orc captain had already sent word ahead to Utgar. Now the race was on, for whoever controlled the winds controlled the seas, and an island no one had paid any mind to before had just become the most valuable patch of land around.

Map - The Island Wellspring

Spoiler Alert!

VS File
Build Requirements: 1 RotV, 1 Marvel, & 1 RttFF

Glyph of Rannveig (Wind) (x2)
All figures with the Flying special power lose this power and cannot fly while standing on the Glyph of Rannveig.

Map Features

Spoiler Alert!

The concrete and asphalt start zones represent landing craft here, like those used to land troops on the beaches during D-Day. Each general has sent 3 landing craft full of troops to claim the island and it's wellspring. After landing those troops on the beach, the troops must make their way to the top of the island hilltop and defeat the other challenger. The trees provide a few LOS blockers to try and hide behind while the deep wells of wellspring water found at the top can be a tactical option used to try and slow down the flow of reinforcements assaulting the hill. Since the glyph effects both sides equally, the decision to claim one is an interesting one.

Play Test

Spoiler Alert!

Armies:
Theracus (40), Siege (120), Moltenclaw (170), Greenscale Warriors x3 (180) = 510
vs.
10th Foot x4 (300), Phantom Knights x3 (210) = 510

Results: Siege w/3W won.

Recap: Moltenclaw’s army won every initiative roll but one in this game. The Lizard King and his minions took up all the OM’s in the first 3 rounds while the 10th Foot took all the OMs for their side in the first 3 rounds. Moltenclaw flew up to the top of the island and lit up two Brits on his first opportunity to do so. The 10th Foot just tactically engaged him with a bayonette charge from that point forward though, losing one figure each turn to the dragons basic attack but keeping the flames at bay. A few 10th foot managed to get to the top of the hill but the Greenscales eventually took control of it and started running down the other side of the hill to engage with soldiers. At the end of round 3, all 15 of the 10th Foot had been killed, but they had taken Moltenclaw and 2 squads of Greenscales with them for a 300 to 290 point trade. Theracus won initiative at the start of round 4 and flew up to the top of the island, dropping Siege onto the glyph to slow the Phantom Knights down. The knights still have a pretty good move of 6 though and took out the last of the Greenscales and Theracus. This brought Siege out into the fight. The Knights won initiative in here once but couldn’t finish Siege off before he activated Crag of Steel. Siege then won initiative 2 more times, keeping Crag of Steel going for some really tough defense and slowly chopping down the knights.

Conclusion: Pretty well balanced game here that could have gone the other way had the initiative rolls been different. The island is so small that even with the hill it doesn’t take long for either side to get into range for some attacks. I had the 10th Foot picking off Greenscales on the other side of the hill without either one at the top, while the Greenscales were ultimately able to run over the hill and engage the 10th foot when they were still trying to make their way to the top. It was a pretty fun game of King of the Hill. The glyph use is very situational as it effects both armies but can have an impact when used.

I just wanted to say that I've been using this map, without any glyphs at all on it, for a bunch of C3G testing lately (6 games to be exact) and I've been really pleased with the results. Perhaps it's not for Classic tournament play with their swarming armies of common squads but for hero heavy battles featuring units with lots of interesting powers it has been a blast. The action gets off to a pretty fast start and then battles rage up and down either side, and also across the top of the hill. Lots of web slinging and mind control being used to move units off the top of the hill while jockeying for height advantage. Most of the games have come down to the wire as well and could have easily gone the other way had a die or two rolled a different way.

I haven't used C3G's knockback rules yet while playing on this map but I imagine those would really be a fun addition, punching or kicking another figure right off the top of the hill just to have them come right back up and kick your figure off the top. May have to run an X-men vs. the Brotherhood of Mutants battle just for fun soon. Magneto throwing mutants down the hill and Colossus throwing them right back up at him, or Storm blowing their whole team down the hill just to have Toad pull her off the top soon after. Jean Grey can also toss people around with her mind and Sabretooth pounces to someone on the top of the hill.

Anyways, I recommend others give it a try. If you feel like you have to use glyphs, then abandon the contest's wellspring theme and just throw some face down treasure glyphs into the bottom of the wells. It's pirate treasure just waiting to be discovered!!!

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by rednax

I completely understand that this is a time-consuming process and I greatly appreciate your taking time to do this. That being said, I would be completely fine with you offering initial feedback on my maps, publicly or privately. And if your feedback changes after later testing, then that's fine too.

Fair enough. My Initial feedback with your maps (understanding I've only played 1 game on Evergreens and 2 on Marshall) would be that structurally they are sound and I really enjoyed playing on both BUT my issue is the glyphs. Wannock and Initiative are not competitively balanced. That and a Wannock glyph will always pull the conflict to one side of the map if it's not in the middle. I think this draws away from your maps because they are wonderful but on Marshall Law the conflict during both my games was never really on the Initiative glyph side, and same with Evergreens. Wannock needs to be countered by a stronger glyph like Gerda, but even still, the mid -end game will pull the conflict toward Wannock. I suggest using two different glyph combinations altogether because I find games get to focused on controlling Wannock and not enough about using the beautiful map features to your advantage. If you did Dagmar&Ulinavia or Valda&Gerda or Lodin&Ulinavia/Dagmar I think we'd find the games to be not so focused on glyph control and more on using the map and grabbing a glyph on the way.

I feel this way for both maps as they both have this issue.

Also, now that I think about it. The only structural issue I see with Marshall Law is that the glyph near the tree needs to be either 1)repositioned or 2) put onto a water space instead of being same level. Here's why. If you have a figure on the glyph and another figure protecting the glyph directly in front (not on the water spaces to the side), then NO doublespaced figures can make an attack on the glyph holder until the figure in front is destroyed or moved. As well, any single-spaces figure would have to go down level into the water and be at an extreme disadvantage to attack up on the glyph holder. This in my opinion is broken due to the armies that could exploit this part of the map. I used this strategy in a game and it gave me the edge I needed And I almost felt bad because my figure was such a choke point my opponent really had a hard time with it. I still want to playtest it more to see just how one-sided it gets...but I anticipate there needing to be some adjustments there to make it ready for competitive play. i was thinking putting a weaker glyph there like Dagmar could help make that issue less of a problem, but I really do think the fact that a figure can block the glyph access from doublespaced figures and making others go lower by standing in front is just too imbalanced. Just switch out a water hex and put a weaker glyph in place of Wannock and I think you'll be golden. So those are my initial thoughts. If your maps don't make the final cut, we'll make that clear in our Review Thread and that way you can make adjustments and resubmit it if need be.

[rednax]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Fair enough. My Initial feedback with your maps (understanding I've only played 1 game on Evergreens and 2 on Marshall) would be that structurally they are sound and I really enjoyed playing on both BUT my issue is the glyphs. Wannock and Initiative are not competitively balanced. That and a Wannock glyph will always pull the conflict to one side of the map if it's not in the middle. I think this draws away from your maps because they are wonderful but on Marshall Law the conflict during both my games was never really on the Initiative glyph side, and same with Evergreens. Wannock needs to be countered by a stronger glyph like Gerda, but even still, the mid -end game will pull the conflict toward Wannock. I suggest using two different glyph combinations altogether because I find games get to focused on controlling Wannock and not enough about using the beautiful map features to your advantage. If you did Dagmar&Ulinavia or Valda&Gerda or Lodin&Ulinavia/Dagmar I think we'd find the games to be not so focused on glyph control and more on using the map and grabbing a glyph on the way.

I feel this way for both maps as they both have this issue.

Also, now that I think about it. The only structural issue I see with Marshall Law is that the glyph near the tree needs to be either 1)repositioned or 2) put onto a water space instead of being same level. Here's why. If you have a figure on the glyph and another figure protecting the glyph directly in front (not on the water spaces to the side), then NO doublespaced figures can make an attack on the glyph holder until the figure in front is destroyed or moved. As well, any single-spaces figure would have to go down level into the water and be at an extreme advantage to attack up on the glyph holder. This in my opinion is broken due to the armies that could exploit this part of the map. I used this strategy in a game and it gave me the edge I needed And I almost felt bad because my figure was such a choke point my opponent really had a hard time with it. I still want to playtest it more to see just how one-sided it gets...but I anticipate there needing to be some adjustments there to make it ready for competitive play. i was thinking putting a weaker glyph there like Dagmar could help make that issue less of a problem, but I really do think the fact that a figure can block the glyph access from doublespaced figures and making others go lower by standing in front is just too imbalanced. Just switch out a water hex and put a weaker glyph in place of Wannock and I think you'll be golden. So those are my initial thoughts. If your maps don't make the final cut, we'll make that clear in our Review Thread and that way you can make adjustments and resubmit it if need be.

I completely hear you regarding glyph location on Marshall Law. I've heard similar criticism from others, and I'm thinking of ways to change the layout in that section of the map so that it doesn't deny access to double-space figures quite so easily.

Regarding the balance of glyphs, I intentionally chose Wannok and Dagmar glyphs because they were not equal. On Everglades and Evergreens, I put the more powerful glyph on the side of the map that was less appealing. My hope was that since the sand/rock side of the map had the more appealing high ground, placing Wannok on the other side would be a way to balance that. That being said, if you still think that it draws too much attention to the swamp side, I can definitely rethink something else. I attempted to do the same thing for Marshall Law, but in hindsight, perhaps the two sides were similar enough that equal glyphs make sense.

In general, I've been struggling with glyph selection a lot. I've generally disliked using Gerda because I think that it's overpowered and slows the game down. Glyphs like Ulaniva and Lodin can be fun, but I think their usefulness depends significantly on the armies being played. Thus, I could imagine many games where they hardly get any use. I like Valda for a lot of maps, but since these maps already have such small footprints and road bonuses, I was worried that Valda would also be too much.

[BiggaBullfrog]

@rednax , I did get to play on Everglades and Evergreens at the tourney. I lost, so your map is obviously broken.

In all seriousness, though, I only played the one game on the one map, but both of your maps look really exciting to me, and I'm looking forward to when I get to them on my play testing list. I actually agree with your glyph selection on the maps - they look really balanced by glyph power vs stronger positioning, like you mentioned. I also think sometimes people underestimate the power of initiative mid-game. There are no obvious map-breaking issues on the maps and only a couple nitpicks I've heard, but if that's all there is I don't see anything big enough against them being tournament-worthy.

For the glyph selection issue, finding that balance is really hard, especially when you're doing preset glyphs. On your maps you're able to balance them with the positioning, but on more symmetrical maps where the glyph points are equal strength, it's tough to find two that actually balance each other out. Gerda is really strong, and the common/unique attack glyphs can be really strong too depending on the army (especially Common), or completely useless depending on the army. Wannok is strong but less so than Gerda and an Attack glyph with the right army. Dagmar is very valuable but only really draws attention at the end of a round. Valda is one of my favorites because it's good for all armies (usually) but is easily contested (generally). Lodin, IMO, is next to useless unless all of your army uses D20 powers. Usually if I'm making a map with preset glyphs, I'll only use one preset glyph, unless it's a longitudinally asymmetric map like your submissions where I can balance positions.

[Dr.Goomonkey]

Here are the first 5 maps for online play, for anyone that's interested. Let me know if you see any somewhat unbrazen errors (so not the table in Thaeberian Wellsprings ).

Also, I took an executive decision and changed up Wasted Swampland a tad. Having water completely surround Kelda was a bit much.

Oop. I also noticed I didn't put the level 4 hexes on Burning Temple, but I've put on a temporary fix with text boxes...

[TREX]

Originally Posted by Dr.Goomonkey

Here are the first 5 maps for online play, for anyone that's interested. Let me know if you see any somewhat unbrazen errors (so not the table in Thaeberian Wellsprings ).

Also, I took an executive decision and changed up Wasted Swampland a tad. Having water completely surround Kelda was a bit much.

Oop. I also noticed I didn't put the level 4 hexes on Burning Temple, but I've put on a temporary fix with text boxes...

The water completely around kelda was really my only turnoff on the map. I enjoyed it otherwise.

[Dr.Goomonkey]

Originally Posted by TREX

The water completely around kelda was really my only turnoff on the map. I enjoyed it otherwise.

Yeah, I really liked it aesthetically, but it definitely caused some problems in play. I can't think of a time when a flying hero was in a game and a non-flying hero got Kelda. That's still out of only a few games with the glyph as Kelda. If the glyph is permanent there is less of a problem, but it's still definitely better to have a couple routes to it.


To chime in about rednax's maps, I really like Marshall Law for some reason... I don't think that the denial of two-space figures would be a big deal if the glyph was Dagmar or something instead of Wannok, but as Wannok that is definitely a problem.


E/E is actually my favorite of those two, the bridge-wall use is pretty cool, I can never figure out what to do with that thing. At first I was confused with the placement of the glyphs, but now I see that the road leading to Wannok is actually really good for balance and such.