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  #193  
Old December 30th, 2014, 08:01 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Q: Does a figure knocked back into water and has remaining knockback points, have to stop its movement and roll for knockback damage?
A: Yes, a single spaced figure moving onto one water tile, or a double spaced figure entering onto two water tiles must immediately stop its movement, and if it has remaining knockback points roll for knockback damage.

Q: Does a figure knocked back off sever height onto a water space receive falling or severe falling damage?
A: No, the water prevents the figure from receiving falling damage, however the figure still roles for knockback damage if it has remaining Knockback points.
Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice. Molten lava, I'm not sure - I know that if they stopped there they'd have to roll for lava damage, but could they get thrown over it? I don't know, but water definitely does not have that effect.


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  #194  
Old December 30th, 2014, 08:36 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

See, now I have gotten opposite answers to both my questions. I realize this is an optional rule set, and that I can house rule it, but it is nice to have quality standards.

I'm really curious at this point what the designer stance on water stopping moving and water preventing falling damage is.

I'm going to go with @Griffin ruling on the falling, because he seemed to be the lead designer and it makes sense within the wording of the rule book.


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  #195  
Old December 30th, 2014, 10:20 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice. Molten lava, I'm not sure - I know that if they stopped there they'd have to roll for lava damage, but could they get thrown over it? I don't know, but water definitely does not have that effect.
This is how I've always interpreted it, and for the same reason you state. As for molten lava, I treat it like water (it doesn't stop movement), but you do roll for molten lava damage for each molten lava tile that you enter. Thematically, I think of it as skipping across/through the water doesn't hurt you, but doing the same in molten lava does. I've always thought this was fairly unambiguous, given the wording "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure". But now that people seem confused by it, I find myself wondering what the original intent actually was.
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  #196  
Old December 30th, 2014, 10:30 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Question - if a flying figure is knocked back, can it take falling damage?
Yep.

Quote:
KNOCKBACK: MOVEMENT
When moving the figure, count changes in elevation normally and
ignore all abilities that affect the figure's movement such as Flying,
Climbing, etc.
And just as a note, figures with Flying CAN take falling damage at any time unless a power specifically says that it cannot (Shurrak), because Flying is optional. So you could chose to NOT have your Raelin fly as she walks off of a cliff and falls for damage. This is especially useful when taking over a figure's mind temporarily.
Also this clearly outlines the Falling Damage. I think Grif would be the authority here.
This would be correct. I was forgetting that powers were negated during Knockback movement. Since Flying was negated during the fall, even flying figures would take any falling damage.
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Flying figures have always been able to take falling damage unless otherwise stated on their card. Not sure why this is an issue. Whether the figure falls due to knockback or some kind of pushing type power/attack from the opponent's figure, it still works the same.
Do you have a source on that? As far as I could find, flying figures do not take falling damage while they are able to use Flying.

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice.
Since stopping could potentially wound the figure, figures do have to stop in water and are then subject to damage, as per the bolded part. This was ruled on just a few pages back.
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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
See, now I have gotten opposite answers to both my questions. I realize this is an optional rule set, and that I can house rule it, but it is nice to have quality standards.
Part of the reason you're getting different answers is that this is a public forum. Not everyone commenting is an official part of C3G. The Heroes (including at least one of the original designers) ruled that figures were stopped by water just a few pages back. There seems to be some confusion, but currently, that is the official ruling.

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  #197  
Old December 30th, 2014, 10:36 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice.
Since stopping could potentially wound the figure, figures do have to stop in water and are then subject to damage, as per the bolded part. This was ruled on just a few pages back.
Man that's a weird ruling. I always assumed the whole purpose of that wording was to prevent that beacause it wouldn't be thematic. Hmm... think this may be another job for Captain Houserule!


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  #198  
Old December 30th, 2014, 11:13 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
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Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice.
Since stopping could potentially wound the figure, figures do have to stop in water and are then subject to damage, as per the bolded part. This was ruled on just a few pages back.
Man that's a weird ruling. I always assumed the whole purpose of that wording was to prevent that beacause it wouldn't be thematic. Hmm... think this may be another job for Captain Houserule!
I guess some people read it like:

"Lava can wound figures, water cannot, so Ignore water's effect."

Where others:

"Stopping in water can cause a Knockback wound, so don't ignore stoping in water"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice.
Now when you look at the Bolded part, it is actually conditional on the italics. In a strict reading of the working, it is the Knockback rule that is causing the wound, not the water's special terrain rule, so you should ignore the water's specail rule that requires a figure to stop in water.


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  #199  
Old December 30th, 2014, 11:31 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice.
Now when you look at the Bolded part, it is actually conditional on the italics. In a strict reading of the working, it is the Knockback rule that is causing the wound, not the water's special terrain rule, so you should ignore the water's specail rule that requires a figure to stop in water.
Yep, that's what I'd say, and it makes them most logical sense, thematically, mechanically and as to why that's in there in the first place. Honestly, I think this was the original intention that just got overridden by Sir G somehow. Other readings just seem weird to me.


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  #200  
Old December 30th, 2014, 11:51 AM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

I completely agree. Back when we were making these rules, I wasn't as involved in the design of this particular ruleset as some of the other Heroes were, so I'm not going to make claims about what was intended or not intended (and I honestly don't remember), but not stopping in water is how I've always played it since that time. I'm not really sure how else you could reasonably interpret the sentence "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure".
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  #201  
Old December 30th, 2014, 01:13 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
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Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice.
Since stopping could potentially wound the figure, figures do have to stop in water and are then subject to damage, as per the bolded part. This was ruled on just a few pages back.
Man that's a weird ruling. I always assumed the whole purpose of that wording was to prevent that beacause it wouldn't be thematic. Hmm... think this may be another job for Captain Houserule!
I guess some people read it like:

"Lava can wound figures, water cannot, so Ignore water's effect."

Where others:

"Stopping in water can cause a Knockback wound, so don't ignore stoping in water"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Actually, this is incorrect. From the Knockback Rulebook: "Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy a figure" - so a figure being knocked back would not be stopped by water, and would not for example, have to halve its movement over heavy snow or slippery ice.
Now when you look at the Bolded part, it is actually conditional on the italics. In a strict reading of the working, it is the Knockback rule that is causing the wound, not the water's special terrain rule, so you should ignore the water's specail rule that requires a figure to stop in water.
Pretty much, yes.

On the theme aspect of stopping or not stopping in Water... arguments can be made for either side of the knockback figure being slammed against the water or skipping across the lake. Both seem cool to me, and would offer different mechanical results "in game", creating unique stories. So there ya go. Either change the rule, keep the rule, or make your own house rule. Whichever way you go, will be fun, as long as you don't inadvertently break any other rules in the process - and that would be my fear, that after all the rules and powers created up to this point, changing something like Knockback for the mere sake of theme, may cause other potential issues that are not foreseeable.
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  #202  
Old December 30th, 2014, 01:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

I prefer the "ignore all terrain effects" interpretation and not have the figure stop. I believe it to be cleaner and leaves the door open to future custom Terrain such as acid pools and quicksand.

As for the falling stuff, I think it is representative of a larger miss-understanding. Since most "move an opponents figure" specifically mention flying figures are not effected, that has come to mean flying figures never roll for falling damage unless they are otherwise negated. This is kinda funny given that any figure hit hard enough to be pushed 6 feet back is likely not able to recover fast enough to get start flying.


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  #203  
Old December 30th, 2014, 01:48 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

I've never played such that flying figures don't take falling damage (except for those special powers that explicitly say so). In terms of theme for knockback, comics show flying figures getting knocked back/down all the time.
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  #204  
Old December 30th, 2014, 01:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Knockback Optional Rules

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After all the rules and powers created up to this point, changing something like Knockback for the mere sake of theme, may cause other potential issues that are not currently foreseeable.
I just wanted to emphasis that. While I'm not involved enough to think this all through (considering every rule and special ability), I would hope that anyone picketing for a change will do their due diligence.
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