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  #4045  
Old April 16th, 2020, 07:49 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

How about a large boulder the size of a small boulder?

Also, I would 100% be OK with a power-less unit. It probably wouldn't be terribly interesting compared to pretty much anything else around it, but as long as the stats and points were right it could make just the filler your army needed.


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  #4046  
Old April 16th, 2020, 08:21 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
So 6 Life, to me, reads more as a particularly long-lived Human rather than a tough one. It's slightly different in everyone's mind, I'm sure.
I don't think of taking damage as cutting years off the creature's life. I see it like in D&D, or video games, or, well, most anything in gaming, really, as a measure of how much punishment that creature can take before it falls.
Yep, in my book:
Defence = ability to avoid significant harm (whether that's through skill, armour, evasion)
Life = ability to keep fighting through significant harm
...and of course both can be represented through powers as well.
So, from this model, Deathwalker, for example, has armour that's thick enough that it's nearly impossible to inflict significant harm on him (well, unless you've ever played Heroscape, anyway...), but internal systems so delicate that any significant harm will instantly shut him down. By contrast, Braxas isn't hard to hurt or draw blood from, but she'll fight through a lot more than most.


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Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
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Originally Posted by dok View Post
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Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
Does this mean Isamu should have never been created? I think he fits the same criteria of an auto include in an army that’s 10 points short.
Isamu definitely never should have been created. He's easily the most broken figure in the game, we just don't notice it because a figure that's underpriced by a factor of 4 is less obvious when he costs 10 points.

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Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
Though you could argue some armies are better with Otanashi but I don’t know if that’s true.
Yeah, not true. Otonashi is a reasonable 10 point filler and can deserve on occasional non-desperation OM in some armies but she's basically fine. She doesn't break the points per wound curve like Marcu or consistently overperform her points like Isamu.
Otanashi doesn’t have any sort of downside though like you’re suggesting with the potato. If not for Isamu she would be the same auto fill, just less underpriced. At one point the Swog Rider(or Dumutef? I don’t actually know which one came first.) was also an auto fill without a downside, just at the 25 point mark.
It's not really the same because, again, Otonashi doesn't break the points/wound curve. There are multiple squad figures that match 10 points per wound, so anything that matches that isn't inherently a problem. It's only a problem if it's way too good to be worth 10 points, like Isamu.

Marcu does break the curve, and is also really really really good (a bit too good for my taste, as far as where I would aim with a VC design). However he does come with a significant downside, and anyway the "auto-include problem" becomes less and less significant the higher the point total gets. You find yourself 10 points under a lot more often than 20, after all.

Does that ppw curve really matter in any case except acting as shields for Wannok, though?
Main issue I see with a 5 point unit is making it interesting enough to be worth designing/existing, not anything about it being inherently broken or an auto-include. Either way, designing one with inherent downsides is probably the best design philosophy if you're going to do one.

But then, I'm also intrigued by the possibility of negative cost units, so...


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  #4047  
Old April 16th, 2020, 08:52 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post

Also, I would 100% be OK with a power-less unit. It probably wouldn't be terribly interesting compared to pretty much anything else around it, but as long as the stats and points were right it could make just the filler your army needed.
The masses of C3G does not share this sentiment. I really, really tried to make this happen but the backlash was brutal, despite the fact that I had all the Heroes approve of it.
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  #4048  
Old April 16th, 2020, 09:27 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I’d be open to a design with nothing in the left box. Why not?

How about a blank power box and no hit zone? Would that be cheating the challenge? Because that could be cool.

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  #4049  
Old April 16th, 2020, 10:47 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
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Originally Posted by dok View Post
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Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Otonashi is a reasonable 10 point filler and can deserve on occasional non-desperation OM in some armies but she's basically fine. She doesn't break the points per wound curve like Marcu or consistently overperform her points like Isamu.
Otanashi doesn’t have any sort of downside though like you’re suggesting with the potato. If not for Isamu she would be the same auto fill, just less underpriced. At one point the Swog Rider(or Dumutef? I don’t actually know which one came first.) was also an auto fill without a downside, just at the 25 point mark.
It's not really the same because, again, Otonashi doesn't break the points/wound curve. There are multiple squad figures that match 10 points per wound, so anything that matches that isn't inherently a problem. It's only a problem if it's way too good to be worth 10 points, like Isamu.

Marcu does break the curve, and is also really really really good (a bit too good for my taste, as far as where I would aim with a VC design). However he does come with a significant downside, and anyway the "auto-include problem" becomes less and less significant the higher the point total gets. You find yourself 10 points under a lot more often than 20, after all.
Does that ppw curve really matter in any case except acting as shields for Wannok, though?
Not really, but competitively that's significant when we're talking about a unit that's essentially a free addition in many armies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Main issue I see with a 5 point unit is making it interesting enough to be worth designing/existing, not anything about it being inherently broken or an auto-include.
I think there's a need for some modesty. The game already has two units that are often "auto-include" in Raelin and Isamu. I think it would be a mistake to release a design knowing it could join that list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Either way, designing one with inherent downsides is probably the best design philosophy if you're going to do one.
Yeah, that's where I'm headed, obviously. I just wanted to have the "potato" discussion first, before putting anything else out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
But then, I'm also intrigued by the possibility of negative cost units, so...
Negative cost units (and zero cost units, for that matter) seem like a bad idea to me. It's just begging for some nasty minmaxing.
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  #4050  
Old April 16th, 2020, 12:49 PM
Knight of Scape Knight of Scape is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
"Potato" is, of course, a thought experiment. I would not submit that.

However, I do think it's inappropriate for the SoV on its merit. The reason is that it would be auto-include in any army that was 5 points short and had an available slot. Yes, all it can do is take a Wannok wound or act as a traffic cone at the front of your startzone. But bizarrely enough, I still think it's too good. Simply put, any 5 pointer that doesn't have a significant downside should never be approved.
Unless it's a valiant potato, I'm not taking it to fill out my 4th + Gilbert build (So it's not an auto-include and therefore balanced, right? ).

I actually agree with Dok here. Any unit without a downside whose cost is the smallest increment of points is inherently too good. I don't think the comparison to when Swog/Dumutef became the cheapest unit is quite valid either, but not as much for the ppw curve reason.

To elaborate on some stuff dok was saying above, the reason potato is too good, imo, isn't that it's an auto-include in certain armies, but that the set of armies where it's an auto-include is so large (plenty of armies have costs ending in 5). People don't particularly try to avoid falling 5 points short of the cap, because 5 points isn't a big deal.

Back when there were no unit's for less than 40 points, any army with 35 points left over would just have to waste them. But 35 points is significant enough (particularly if you're playing with point limits around 400, which used to be the norm, I think), that if your army was short 35, you would probably think about a way to restructure your army to use more points. Therefore, even if Swog/Dumutef would be an auto-include in armies that were 25 points short, there weren't necessarily a lot of those armies showing up. Armies that are 5 point short are way more common (and we have a lot more figures available now, so arguably the fraction of armies it's acceptable for a new unit to be an automatic inclusion in should be smaller).

I have kind of a unique perspective here, since I typically play Heroscape with self-adjusting point costs designed to ensure each army card is picked about equally often. As you might expect, this has an interesting impact on filler units. Isamu usually goes for around 40 points (since, as dok notes, he's the most undercosted unit, percentage-wise, by a landslide), but even Otonashi typically goes for at least 20 points, just because, even though she seldom does anything, she gets auto-included in armies that are a few points short just by virtue of being the cheapest unit.

I don't really want to be facing a potato all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post

Also, I would 100% be OK with a power-less unit. It probably wouldn't be terribly interesting compared to pretty much anything else around it, but as long as the stats and points were right it could make just the filler your army needed.
Interestingly enough, thanks to the Personal Delta system, I also have experience with a powerless unit. We have Parmenio, but no sacred band, so Parmenio's only power that can do anything is Disciplined influence, and without the band, it's uses are extremely niche (you can protect one of your wild figures from Otonashi, or prevent one of your uniques from synergizing with the enemy army in case they get mindshackled). So he goes for about 50 points, where he's not usually better than MBS as a warlord for the Romans, but can be useful when there's a good glyph you need somebody to sit on, because the lack of powers makes him pretty tanky for his cost.

I think that if you wanted to make a no-powers unit, you'd definitely want to make strategic use of the left box to give them interesting synergies. DS's idea of combining with no hit zone would be interesting. I've thought about using that on a custom in lieu of an "invisibility" power.

~KoS, who has designed and had fun with a negative point custom, but agrees that the concept has too much potential to be gamebreaking to make it official.

Last edited by Knight of Scape; April 16th, 2020 at 03:24 PM.
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  #4051  
Old April 16th, 2020, 01:05 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

@Knight of Scape and @Aratrea and I had a 5-point custom several years ago:

Quote:
NAME = BOB THE RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED CUSTOM

GENERAL = UTGAR
SPECIES = HUMAN
TYPE = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CUSTOM
PERSONALITY = OVERPOWERED
SIZE = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 99
RANGE = 99
ATTACK = 99
DEFENSE = 99
POINTS = 5

ALL-POWERFUL

If you reveal an Order Marker on Bob the Ridiculously Overpowered Custom, you immediately win the game.
Like Potato, I think this one is a bit too good.
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  #4052  
Old April 16th, 2020, 01:50 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
@Knight of Scape and @Aratrea and I had a 5-point custom several years ago:

Quote:
NAME = BOB THE RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED CUSTOM

GENERAL = UTGAR
SPECIES = HUMAN
TYPE = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CUSTOM
PERSONALITY = OVERPOWERED
SIZE = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 99
RANGE = 99
ATTACK = 99
DEFENSE = 99
POINTS = 5

ALL-POWERFUL

If you reveal an Order Marker on Bob the Ridiculously Overpowered Custom, you immediately win the game.
Like Potato, I think this one is a bit too good.
It's also a clear example of why adjusting point costs is not a guaranteed solution to balance any unit. A unit with All-Powerful could not ever be balanced. (Making it too expensive to include in any army, ever, is not a solution, because then it's not a valid unit.)
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  #4053  
Old April 16th, 2020, 01:50 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Pel was a nice design that effectively had no powers.
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  #4054  
Old April 16th, 2020, 02:08 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
@Knight of Scape and @Aratrea and I had a 5-point custom several years ago:

Quote:
NAME = BOB THE RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED CUSTOM

GENERAL = UTGAR
SPECIES = HUMAN
TYPE = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CUSTOM
PERSONALITY = OVERPOWERED
SIZE = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 99
RANGE = 99
ATTACK = 99
DEFENSE = 99
POINTS = 5

ALL-POWERFUL

If you reveal an Order Marker on Bob the Ridiculously Overpowered Custom, you immediately win the game.
Like Potato, I think this one is a bit too good.
It's also a clear example of why adjusting point costs is not a guaranteed solution to balance any unit. A unit with All-Powerful could not ever be balanced. (Making it too expensive to include in any army, ever, is not a solution, because then it's not a valid unit.)
Yep. Just like Potato, it has value as an object lesson even if it's a terrible custom.
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  #4055  
Old April 16th, 2020, 02:18 PM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Pel was a nice design that effectively had no powers.
Even if they're negative powers, they change gameplay. Pel's inability to move while engaged affects decisions for positioning, and his inability to lock down figures greatly decreases his value with Ravagers.
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  #4056  
Old April 16th, 2020, 02:43 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Yeah, negative powers are still powers. Pel's may not always be an issue given he just wants to smash the thing in front of him. No powers at all would be interesting, you'd just look at the stats.

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