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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.

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  #37  
Old August 19th, 2020, 09:00 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Where does Krug stack up in the "best bonding hero" discussion? I'd argue he's gotta be pretty high because the Arrow Gruts have garbage stats and attack activations compared to the bonded melee.
Krug is an interesting question. I feel like Krug/Arrows, {TKN/SBN/WSG}/Grubs, & Charos/Greens are all semi-similar armies that don't fit into any of the "army archetypes" that have been used for discussion recently. Not saying they all play the same or are the same strength, but they all have a common core of a bonding hero that is the main offense and squads based on supporting & supplementing that hero in some way & I don't think that common component is currently described in any army archetype.

If you expand to C3V, then Jotun/Dreadgulls also might fit into whatever category this is.
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  #38  
Old August 19th, 2020, 09:48 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

TKN/Grubs and Charos/Greens are definitely a separate melee bonding archetype from the traditional melee bonding that's more squad focus. I think Blades/Grimnak may fall in that same archetype too. It's where the squads and heroes kind of have a symbiotic relationship dedicated to preserving the life of the hero, where the hero also helps out the squads to make them a threat too. They also are substantially faster move than the other melee bonding squads. I had a lot of fun playing all three of the armies in this at different Online Con events (Charos Greenscales in General Wars, TKN in a couple playtest games, and Blade Gruts in RtW). They're a completely different challenge to play from Knights/Axegrinders/Heavies style bonding and I find that style more fun. But they aren't as competitive.

All that to say that I don't think Krug and AGs fit into that archetype, although admittedly my tournament AG experience is entirely without Krug because of RtW. Krug wants to take wounds, AGs don't care about protecting him. AGs are a ranged squad, and they can hold their own even without a big bonder, just with Swogs and Arrows and Raelin. What Krug does for them is give them hero-killing, which they sorely lack without him. Krug builds require a slightly different playstyle with the Swogs, since you have to invest a lot of OMs into getting him into the fight and once he's there you have to keep hitting. I'm not surprised at all to see Arrow Gruts with Krug win a tournament, they have pretty smooth matchups which I valued a lot in the OP. I think their big weakness is Greenscales, similar to the Cathar. They don't really want to engage the dragons and so the dragons can just go off. Krug helps but Greenscales should just ignore him.
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  #39  
Old August 19th, 2020, 10:46 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
In 2011, at I guess what you could call a "Bring the Cheese" event, I played Arrow Gruts at a 40-person tournament up in MN and managed to walk away with the tourney win, taking out Trons, 2 Redcoat armies, and a Nilf/Q9/2x Rats army. I didn't have to face Q9/Rats/Raelin/Hydra, but I think there was someone playing that in attendance. Although I'd never call them the army to beat, Arrow Gruts stack up surprisingly well against a Q9 and Dragons kind of meta, especially if you expect to see more Redcoats than 4th Mass around.

The final was actually against an Aubrien Archer/ Warriors of Ashra army.


Edit: It was actually 4x Rats/Raelin/Krav/Q9 at the tourney, not Hydra.
That’s really interesting. I need to play Arrows more. Krug is definitely one of the top bonding heroes. Perhaps Arrows are better than I originally thought...
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  #40  
Old August 19th, 2020, 11:50 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

The other interesting thing about that day is that I ran an Ice Troll Berserker who hardly got used, so my army wasn't really ideal for the point total in hindsight. And my win against Joe's trons came at a time when he was super rusty.


I'd say the key number with that army is 5.... 5 attacks all day early on, even if they're just 2 die attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #41  
Old August 19th, 2020, 11:53 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
The other interesting thing about that day is that I ran an Ice Troll Berserker who hardly got used, so my army wasn't really ideal for the point total in hindsight. And my win against Joe's trons came at a time when he was super rusty.


I'd say the key number with that army is 5.... 5 attacks all day early on, even if they're just 2 die attacks.
I like Ice Troll. I don’t think he’s a terrible call, but he’s probably not the best choice. Were you running Raelin?
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  #42  
Old August 19th, 2020, 11:56 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

Yes, Raelin was typically a must in my or spider's AG builds.

4x Arrow Gruts 160
3x Swog Rider 235
Raelin 315
Krug 435
ITB 520

The tron build I faced was 4x Glads/ 2x Blasts / Rae

Quote:
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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #43  
Old August 20th, 2020, 12:06 AM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Yes, Raelin was typically a must in my or spider's AG builds.

4x Arrow Gruts 160
3x Swog Rider 235
Raelin 315
Krug 435
ITB 520

The tron build I faced was 4x Glads/ 2x Blasts / Rae
The only real optimization may be another Swog, Arkmer, and Isamu instead of Ice Troll (presuming 24 hex limit), but it’s close. Arkmer is definitely worth it against melee, and another Swog is always good, but Ice Troll is solid too.
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  #44  
Old August 20th, 2020, 01:04 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

AGs have been more hurt by the changes in map design than any other ranged army. Other ranged armies are much more mobile and adaptable to finding decent firing positions even if the map isn't loaded with tons of little sub-hills. AGs are highly dependent on proper Swog positioning in order to have decent firing power, and you can't afford to reposition 3 swogs in order to shoot from a different spot.

There are a few popular modern maps (Fulcrum, Fossil, and BMR come to mind) where you can set up a solid position with AGs and get plenty of shots down on approaching units, but on most maps you're just going to get rolled over by any army that can get solid board presence quickly. I have considered AGs for the Gencon main event every year since 2012 (when I played them, and missed day 2 for the only time). Every year I look at the map pool, wince, and decide against it.

Last edited by dok; August 20th, 2020 at 01:15 PM. Reason: 2012*
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  #45  
Old August 20th, 2020, 01:33 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
AGs have been more hurt by the changes in map design than any other ranged army.

Two of my games were on Searing Pass by Hasbro, so I get the feeling that the tournament I was at was pretty old school in its maps that day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #46  
Old August 20th, 2020, 02:36 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Just listened to you guys talk about the top 3 Melee armies and it was pretty cool.


Where does Krug stack up in the "best bonding hero" discussion? I'd argue he's gotta be pretty high because the Arrow Gruts have garbage stats and attack activations compared to the bonded melee.
Krug is very solid and I think is a quite a bit underused/overlooked hero for how solid he is. He’s the best part of the AG build in my opinion and honestly is still a great hero outside of that. You can do some cool things with him in an Ornak build. He just always does a great amount of damage for 120pt., he’s just a bit slow.

On the other hand, it’s hard to pass up the Hydra or Kaemon Awa for a 120pt. hero spot. So I guess it’s understandable that we don’t see him as often as I think we would. Krug’s kind of an old school dude, but is still great.

To me Krug is somewhere behind Alistair/MDG/Mogrimm, which is somewhere behind Gilbert/MBS/Grimnak (and I guess Nilf and Braxas if we’re counting them a la Greenscales)
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  #47  
Old August 25th, 2020, 04:08 PM
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Re: 10 year check: where is Bring the Cheese now?

With the exception of Fen Hydra, Greenscales, and Phantom Knights, I'd say that most of the D&D units were a bit underexplored in the GenCon/cheese meta of 2010. Maybe looking at 4x400 and General Wars can give you some idea of what to expect?

The one thing I see missing from the OP here (assuming 20-24 hex starting zones again) is the Glad/Blast army. I still think it does pretty well against the field, although it does struggle some with rats (3x and more... 1x or 2x isn't quite as big of a deal).

Quote:
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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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