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C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #85  
Old February 23rd, 2016, 11:54 PM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

I think we all agree on Bladerunner and Soultaker. The question is what to do with the third power, and how to use it to support those two powers. My suggest? A defensive power against ranged attacks. A few key reasons.

1: Helps her survive long enough to get into the fray. She's a slow-burn character so, yeah, that's important.
2: Makes her ranged attack more attractive. Those attacks are worse, but stay back she may survive longer.
3: Makes movement more tactical. Do you push further in for the kill? Or attack then fall back to stay alive?

And with that, let's keep things simple and go back to a Classic power off of the Elite Onyx Vipers.

EVASIVE 4
When Katana rolls defense dice against an attacking figure who is not adjacent, add 4 defense dice.
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  #86  
Old February 24th, 2016, 12:07 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

I'd be fine with that at 6 defense(or 5 if that's too much) when in adjacent combat, as I'd suspect the player will prefer her to be. But I agree on the idea that at range is where she's at her weakest if we go with CCE, which is an issue. I like the idea of her being able to dodge/block easier when she has more time to react. Her own ranged attacks being weak, but still something to use until she can get in. Then, when she manages to get in, she can attack with her most devastating attacks, and choose whether to stay in or move back out. You can have other teammates engaged with enemies as she pops around trying to clean up.

That'd certainly work for me. It's why I liked Stealth Dodge on her, as it gave her some help getting in, and allowed her to kind of dance around her opponents, and fall back if helpful.

Last edited by Arkham; February 24th, 2016 at 12:30 AM.
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  #87  
Old February 24th, 2016, 01:12 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

I think TB makes a great point about the range. It sounds like another "she could" versus "she does" argument. She has all sorts of ranged weapon abilities. But can you find a picture of her actually using any? Or is it more that every single time she's pictured, she's swinging that sword? There's a reason you want to filter everything through Soultaker. So why let her be ranged at all? It's not iconic and it doesn't mesh with the driving focus of the design.

Here's my stab at a lunchbox version that emphasizes up close combat with just enough extra survivability at range without making it a thematic focus (which I feel would be non-iconic):

NAME = KATANA
SECRET IDENTITY = TATSU YAMASHIRO

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = INTERLOPER
PERSONALITY = RUTHLESS

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 4

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = ~?

BLADERUNNER
Katana never takes leaving engagement attacks, and may attack with her normal attack up to 2 times at any point before, during, or after her normal move as long as she is on a space where she could end her movement.

SOULTAKER
Figures subtract 2 from their defense dice when attacked by Katana with an adjacent normal attack. When Katana destroys an opponent’s Unique Hero, you may place it on this card if it is not an Android, Construct, Undead or destructible object. When an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for initiative or for a figure attacked by this special attack, you may subtract 2 from the roll for each figure on this card, to a maximum of -6.

DEFENSIVE ARTS
When defending against a normal attack, add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled and, if the attacking figure is adjacent to Katana, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

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DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #88  
Old February 24th, 2016, 01:29 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

Not bad. I mean, I haven't looked into her comics myself, so I couldn't tell you for sure how often they come up. But if they are listing weapons she is proficient in specifically, I'd imagine she has used them on a few occasions otherwise why mention them at all?

But I'm not against dropping it if the rest of the card works well.

As for your suggested power, and the overall design played out like that, I can dig it. Though special attacks are going to tear her to shreds at 4 life and 4 defense. But I'd be fine giving it a try.

We've got a lot of ideas here on the table, and I'm looking to pick one and move forward. So any final thoughts here on preference? @johnny139 @Viegon @Karat @TrollBrute @Yodaking @Ronin
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  #89  
Old February 24th, 2016, 01:55 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

I do appreciate the fact that that modified version of Soultaker and Counter Strike allows her to place the figure on her card if they are killed from her excess shields, as it should be.
So for that reason alone I like it.
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  #90  
Old February 24th, 2016, 02:17 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

I can't really speak to theme here, so my concerns are just related to mechanics. Most everything posted in the last couple pages reads smoothly enough to me. The version posted by Bats, the second one you posted in that double-design post, and the one TB quoted (as well as johnny's suggestion of re-using Evasive) all look fun. You've got options.

From this point, my only strong recommendation is that whatever you decide to do, you not end up with both the auto-skull on her normal attack and the -2 to defense on her normal attack. When combined with her double attack, I think her attack efficiency would start looking scary.

Can't speak to the theme of range vs melee (EDIT: But I can attest to Comic Vine's approach to making a wiki, which is strictly quantity over quality ). Not knowing anything about the character other than what can be learned from the discussion here, I do like the simplicity/focus of her having a melee attack. I think there's something to be said for subtractive design, so if taking away her range tightens up the theme, I'm all for it.
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  #91  
Old February 24th, 2016, 03:46 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

Getting a post with all of the options in it would aid in my appraisal due to my limited time for review currently.
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  #92  
Old February 24th, 2016, 05:13 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

Most of it has been pretty much decided. We're all pretty much in agreement with Bladerunner and Soultaker, and how they should work. There's some that want to strip range, and just focus on melee. It's coming down to what should her 3rd power be, to help keep her alive and be thematic.

So we have Bats' latest version proposed, which focuses purely on melee, and offers a modified Counter Strike that would allow her to destroy a figure with it and have it count towards her Soultaker kills:
Quote:
LIFE = 4

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = ~?

BLADERUNNER
Katana never takes leaving engagement attacks, and may attack with her normal attack up to 2 times at any point before, during, or after her normal move as long as she is on a space where she could end her movement.

SOULTAKER
Figures subtract 2 from their defense dice when attacked by Katana with an adjacent normal attack. When Katana destroys an opponent’s Unique Hero, you may place it on this card if it is not an Android, Construct, Undead or destructible object. When an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for initiative or for a figure attacked by this special attack, you may subtract 2 from the roll for each figure on this card, to a maximum of -6.

DEFENSIVE ARTS
When defending against a normal attack, add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled and, if the attacking figure is adjacent to Katana, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.
This seems to address most people's concerns. From the defense being too good or too bad, the auto-wounds not attributing to her Soultaker, and overall synergy between powers.

Now, if we kept the range, Johnny suggested this classic power:
Quote:
EVASIVE 4
When Katana rolls defense dice against an attacking figure who is not adjacent, add 4 defense dice.
Which would help keep her alive from non-adjacent attacks.

Currently, after thinking about it, Bats's take nails down the problems I had with the design prior. None of her powers are competing with each other, they all go towards one another, and none step on the other's toes. I didn't care for Counter Strike, because it'd have her possibly killing an enemy without her Sword, which doesn't give her the benefits that you're hoping to obtain. Johnny's addressed her vulnerability to non-adjacent attacks, but this version from Bats extends the auto-shield from Counter Strike to non-adjacent as well.

So all-in-all, I'm happy with Bats's version the most right now, and am thinking it's what I want to run with. The only thing I'm confused about is she can no longer move through all figures in his version of Bladerunner, and I'm not sure why that change was made. So I'd like to see that still included.
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  #93  
Old February 24th, 2016, 09:23 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

I copied and pasted the Bladerunner text from the SP and subtracted the auto skull part, so it's not that I removed anything about her walking through figures. But I'm fine seeing that added in.

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DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #94  
Old February 24th, 2016, 09:32 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

Some 1v1 matches with Bats's version:

vs. Daredevil (180):
Katana with 2 wounds. (Katana being able to move after her first attack makes it difficult for Daredevil to escape)
vs. Daredevil (180):
Katana with 1 wound. (bad matchup for Daredevil)
vs. Punisher (180):
Punisher with 0 wounds. (nasty Special Attacks are Katana's achilles heel)
vs. Punisher (180):
Katana with 3 wounds. (big attack from Katana, and Punisher didn't have great luck with his APRSA)
vs. Molly Hayes (180):
Katana with 0 wounds. (botched defense by Molly Hayes for 3 wounds)
vs. Molly Hayes (180):
Katana with 2 wounds. (all skulls from Katana, and Molly fails her 1st and only fatigue roll)
vs. Bane (190):
Katana with 1 wound. (couple of botched defenses by Bane)
vs. Bane (190):
Katana with 2 wounds. (botched defense by Bane for 3 wounds)
vs. Asgardian Warrior (190):
Asgardian Warrior with 4 wounds. (2 botched defenses by Asgardian Warrior, 1 botched defense by Katana)
vs. Asgardian Warrior (190):
Katana with 3 wounds. (botched defense by Asgardian Warrior)
vs. Hydro-Man (190):
Hydro-Man with 1 wound. (Katana botched 2 defenses against his SA)
vs. Hydro-Man (190):
Katana with 1 wound. (Hydro-Man botched 2 defenses)
vs. Batman I (200):
Batman with 2 wounds. (Evasive Strike rolls were hot)
vs. Batman I (200):
Batman with 2 wounds. (used Batarangs Special and hit a couple Evasive Strikes)
vs. Helmut Zemo (200):
Zemo with 0 wounds. (hit a big Master Swordplay with removed X for 3 wounds, then 2nd attack she botched her defense).
vs. Helmut Zemo (200):
Zemo with 2 wounds. (hit a big Master Swordplay with revealed X for 2 wounds to finish her off after initially hitting her with a ranged attack for 2 wounds)
vs. Black Panther (200):
Katana with 0 wounds. (She defended against his attacks, and her attacks managed to just break through his defense each time.)
vs. Black Panther (200):
Katana with 3 wounds. (2 botched defenses by Katana, and a botched defense by Black Panther)
vs. Bug (200):
Katana with 3 wounds. (some botched defenses by Bug)
vs. Bug (200):
Katana with 1 wound. (some botched defenses by Bug)
vs. Lizard (200):
Katana with 1 wound. (botched defense by Lizard, 1 successful Defensive Arts for 1 wound)
vs. Lizard (200):
Katana with 3 wounds. (botched defense by Katana, botched attack by Lizard, botched defense by Lizard on an all skulls by Katana)
vs. Conan (200):
Conan with 4 wounds. (Conan took 2 wounds to enable Battle Hardened, then used his SA for the remainder)
vs. Conan (200):
Conan with 2 wounds. (Conan took wound to enable Battle Hardened, then used his SA for the remainder)
vs. Killer Croc (200):
Katana with 0 wounds. (botched defense by Croc)
vs. Killer Croc (200):
Katana with 1 wound.
vs. Grey Gargoyle (200):
Grey Gargoyle with 3 wounds. (Katana was leading, but as soon as Grey Gargoyle got his Hand of Stone, it was all over for her)
vs. Grey Gargoyle (200):
Katana with 0 wounds. (tough matchup for GG, as he lives or dies by his ability to get Hand of Stone. This time, he did not.)
vs. Cyborg (200):
Katana with 1 wound. (Cyborg failed to have any decent attack with his SA)
vs. Cyborg (200):
Katana with 2 wounds. (Cyborg botched a defense for 3 wounds, and once again failed to roll more than 2 skulls on his SA)
vs. Kraven (200):
Katana with 2 wounds.
vs. Kraven (200):
Kraven with 2 wounds.
vs. Living Mummy (200):
Living Mummy with 4 wounds.
vs. Living Mummy (200):
Living Mummy with 3 wounds.

After playing all of those confrontations, I'm liking how she feels, and I'm thinking playtesting at 200 is a good start. She went 12-10 against other 200 units. Special attackers are her biggest weakness. But she packs enough of a punch on her turns that she never felt in over her head, which is great.
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  #95  
Old February 24th, 2016, 09:44 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

I'd like to see her Defense down to 3 in that write-up, which gives her the equivalent of 6 Defense but more consistent and with a lower ceiling. It'd push her down more to the 180 range as well, which I think is more character-appropriate.

I'm happy with it in general though.
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  #96  
Old February 24th, 2016, 10:15 AM
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Re: The Book of Katana (Breathing)

A defense of 3 against Special Attacks is pretty awful, IMO. Now if we want to extend just the auto-shield part to any attacks, I could agree. But the way she was playing, Special Attacks already have her number, so lowering her chances even more would be brutal.
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