Dark Avengers/Cabal/H.A.M.M.E.R. Workshop

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by johnny139

So here's what I have (way back) for two Dakens. Obviously very outdated, what with the use of Operative rather than Charlatan... but for reference.
...

The key thing I want from him is really just that "getting allies to flip their lid for his amusement" thing. That's what really sticks out to me from that particular era, more than the dad-hating or the show-boating.

I think your power works pretty well for that, but having to move an OM seems like a really powerful downside unless you can just send him off on his own mission. But why does he have to have a revealed OM on his card to take an OM? That locks him out of using it to snag an OM if Norman loses initiative. So far, the only one of their powers it would really work with is Bullseye. I'm also against the downside just being restricted to Charlatans. The way it is now you can basically neutralize his downside by just...not playing him with the Dark Avengers. And only half of the Dark Avengers are Charlatans anyways.

I'm kind of torn on all the OM powers. On one hand, too many might start to leave the player frustrated. Iron Patriot is probably in my top 50 C3G designs, but even him by himself can be frustrating to play at times. Throw in 2 or 3 other powers that screw up your plans and what's the point in even making plans anymore? But on the other hand, the utter chaos of having OMs bouncing from card to card like pinballs has a weird charm to it too. I definitely think it's worth looking at ways for them to screw each other over that don't involve OMs, like Ronin's drafts have.

Muramasa Claws is really cool. On a thematic level, should he have Healing Factor X or regular Healing Factor?

Wolverine/Daken is my least favorite Dark Avenger by far, if anyone is interested. I always felt like he was too much of a Mary Sue in his book.

[Ronin]

What about doing something like Antagonizing Presence, but it only affects figures without unrevealed OMs on their cards? Or maybe just fewer unrevealed OMs than Daken?

All figures that are within 4 clear sight spaces of Wolverine and have fewer than X unrevealed Order Markers on their cards add 1 to their Attack number when attacking an adjacent figure and subtract 1 from their Defense number when defending against an adjacent figure. X is the number of unrevealed Order Markers on this card.

That feels very button-pushy, and it plays into the team's OM shenanigans without being another OM movement power - I agree that too many of those could get complicated.

I think he would be fun to play with Iron Patriot with that power, too, which is a key thing to keep in mind: there's no hard synergy that makes Norman want the thematic Dark Avengers more than anyone else, so they need to actually want to hang out with Norman.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by Ronin

What about doing something like Antagonizing Presence, but it only affects figures without unrevealed OMs on their cards? Or maybe just fewer unrevealed OMs than Daken?

That feels very button-pushy, and it plays into the team's OM shenanigans without being another OM movement power - I agree that too many of those could get complicated.

I think he would be fun to play with Iron Patriot with that power, too, which is a key thing to keep in mind: there's no hard synergy that makes Norman want the thematic Dark Avengers more than anyone else, so they need to actually want to hang out with Norman.

I like that a lot. I'm used to him only using his pheromones on one person at a time, but even if that's true you could justify it by saying he's being antagonizing without the use of pheromones.

[Ronin]

Yeah, I think Daken is generally pretty antagonistic - my approach was more to represent that in a way that feels like it could include his pheromone stuff.

[MrNobody]

So basically just for my own reference, here's what we have so far;

IRON PATRIOT
Upisdes: If you win initiative, he can give you a lot of free movement.
Downsides: If you lose initiative, your opponent can mess with OMS not on IP's card.

MS. MARVEL
Upsides: If you win initiative, you can immediately rearrange OMs, meaning you can throw all your OMs on IP, then if you win initiative, reposition your OMs to take advantage of IP's leadership.
Downsides: If you lose initiative, she will subtract defense from your "leader's" card (Probably IP's card), meaning they'll be a huge target.

SPIDEY/VENOM
Upsides:
Downsides: Can be thrown into allies, causing damage.

HAWKEYE
Upsides: Can potentially steal OMs back from places you don't want them to be, like if IP rearranged them.
Downsides: Needs to inflict damage or else he could steal OMs from your other units and mess with your plans. Could also potentially attack your own units.

DAKEN
Upsides: Can boost attack, good for figures who can attack multiple times per turn (IP, Hawkeye), and can also lower enemy's defense.
Downsides: Can lower the defense of your units and can raise the enemy's attack. Wants the X OM. Needs lots of unrevealed OMs to function best.

NOH-VARR (Yes I'm counting him, shut up)
Upsides: Is a nice guy that doesn't screw with his teammates.
Downsides: Wants the X OM.

That leaves out the other 2 members, Ares and the Sentry.

For the Sentry, the obvious downside is him going into Void mode and wrecking your team. Personally I'd like to see him more likely to Void out if he's being put under stress or manipulated. I don't know how it would be possible, but it would be cool to see him play differently under the Avengers vs. the Dark Avengers, to show how Norman's manipulations make him more savage and unstable.

For Ares, like I said before, I see him as one of the few stabilizing forces in the team. He's not just a brute, he's also a master strategist and the other DAs actually seem to put some value in what he has to say. I think him and Victoria Hand could help keep things on track just a little bit.

Sorry if this is a bit obvious to everyone else, I think it'll just help me to see everything written out like that.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

IRON PATRIOT
Upisdes: If you win initiative, he can give you a lot of free movement.
Downsides: If you lose initiative, your opponent can mess with OMS not on IP's card.

Sounds right! Worth mentioning that there's already some built-in risk/reward on this power: Norman wants OMs for his leadership, but wants to hand them out for the movement.

Usually I like to play him in armies where either:
a) there's no bad place for an OM. All Heavies army, essentially.
b) there's some tricksy way to avoid the downside. Think Batman (Dick Grayson)

I really like playing Iron Patriot with Captain Marvel (Billy Batson), because he checks both those boxes with his OM rearrangement and beatstick status.

MS. MARVEL
Upsides: If you win initiative, you can immediately rearrange OMs, meaning you can throw all your OMs on IP, then if you win initiative, reposition your OMs to take advantage of IP's leadership.
Downsides: If you lose initiative, she will subtract defense from your "leader's" card (Probably IP's card), meaning they'll be a huge target.

Honestly, I know you're feeling the current version, but I'd really like to simplify her thing. Mainly I'd like to lose the OM rearrangement, because I think the overlap with Chaotic Leadership is a little much to handle, and even more-so if we're doing more OM stuff.

SPIDEY/VENOM
Upsides:
Downsides: Can be thrown into allies, causing damage.

This is one where I'm a little iffy on the current mechanics as well.

(The intent of the Collateral Damage is that triggers with Chaotic Leadership movement, though)

HAWKEYE
Upsides: Can potentially steal OMs back from places you don't want them to be, like if IP rearranged them.
Downsides: Needs to inflict damage or else he could steal OMs from your other units and mess with your plans. Could also potentially attack your own units.

I don't think attacking your own units is a huge risk when he has 9 range? It could happen, especially early on, but I wouldn't expect it most of the time.

DAKEN
Upsides: Can boost attack, good for figures who can attack multiple times per turn (IP, Hawkeye), and can also lower enemy's defense.
Downsides: Can lower the defense of your units and can raise the enemy's attack. Wants the X OM. Needs lots of unrevealed OMs to function best.

NOH-VARR (Yes I'm counting him, shut up)
Upsides: Is a nice guy that doesn't screw with his teammates.
Downsides: Wants the X OM.

That all sounds right.

Sorry if this is a bit obvious to everyone else, I think it'll just help me to see everything written out like that.

No worries, I think it makes sense to try to map this stuff out.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Honestly, I know you're feeling the current version, but I'd really like to simplify her thing. Mainly I'd like to lose the OM rearrangement, because I think the overlap with Chaotic Leadership is a little much to handle, and even more-so if we're doing more OM stuff.

I mean that's fair, it's your design. I just feel like the current version gets the Dark Avengers dynamic pitch perfect. There's just something so evocative about Norman loading up on OMs and charging into battle like "Never fear, citizens! Your Avengers are here!" only for him to realize that Karla and the crew aren't with him at all.

On the flipside, while the whole OM thing works really well with Iron Patriot (at least in my opinion), it's probably not that helpful for other leader-types.

I don't think attacking your own units is a huge risk when he has 9 range? It could happen, especially early on, but I wouldn't expect it most of the time.

Yeah, I don't think it would be a big issue. I was mainly thinking of the first round or two, where he's not quite deployed. If it ends up being a problem, it could be that the marker is placed at the end of each round.

This is one where I'm a little iffy on the current mechanics as well.

(The intent of the Collateral Damage is that triggers with Chaotic Leadership movement, though)

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that. It would be nice, if he has a downside to working with Norman, there's an upside as well.

[MrNobody]

NAME = H.A.M.M.E.R. AGENTS

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD (3)
CLASS = AGENTS
PERSONALITY = CORRUPT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3

POINTS = 90-100?

KILL BOX SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 9.
If three unengaged H.A.M.M.E.R. Agents you control all have line of sight and height advantage on the same opponent's figure, they may roll their attack dice as one combined attack.

BLIND EYE
H.A.M.M.E.R. Agents and figures engaged with H.A.M.M.E.R. Agents cannot roll leaving engagement attacks against Criminals or Charlatans.

They're SHIELD Agents, but slightly suckier. Note the slight range and defense drops.

Kill Box actually works really well with Iron Patriot already, so that seems like it should stay. Blind Eye is just a little theme touch, so I could really see it replaced with anything. Something that somehow turned OMs on these guys into activations of Charlatans would combo really well with Norman as well, but I don't want to steal LexCorp's thing too hard.

[IAmBatman]

The same signature power on both SHIELD and HAMMER Agents? Hmm. Not sure they'll feel different enough. I mean, I get the "they're SHIELD Agents, but slightly suckier" but if they're that close but just a bit worse, why bother having these guys?

[MrNobody]

Honestly I also considered just proposing a reskin of the SHIELD Agents card here. I mean the concept is literally Norman Osborn taking SHIELD stuff and spraypainting a new logo on it, so maybe they don’t even need a new design?

[Karat]

What about something a little different?

H.A.M.M.E.R. TIME SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 3+special.
When attacking with this special attack, you may roll 1 additional die for each H.A.M.M.E.R. Agent you control within 5 spaces of the defending figure, up to a maximum of 6 additional dice.

Makes it harder to set up, but potentially just as devastating.

[MrNobody]

Maybe it could be slightly harder to set up but also offer slightly more reward? That seems like it could fit with the more swingy nature of Norman’s whole setup.