Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Off-Topic > General
General Random thoughts and ideas. "General" does not mean random drivel, nonsense or inane silliness.


View Poll Results: Why do you accept the proposition that a deity exists?
I know God through reason, science, etc. 3 8.11%
I accept God through belief or personal revelation 11 29.73%
Other 12 32.43%
I am an atheist but want to vote in this poll because polls are dope 11 29.73%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #181  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 05:37 PM
Tornado's Avatar
Tornado Tornado is offline
Fan Fiction Prompt Master
 
Join Date: August 11, 2010
Location: USA - MI - Kalamazoo (Climax)
Posts: 26,172
Images: 311
Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth
Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

That is the best explanation I have heard thus far. Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 06:26 PM
Flash_19's Avatar
Flash_19 Flash_19 is online now
Frank Lloyd Wright of Hexes
 
Join Date: June 29, 2017
Location: USA - UT - American Fork
Posts: 818
Images: 1
Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
That is the best explanation I have heard thus far. Thank you.
You bet! Glad it helped a bit.

My Map Thread
Maps for Online HS
My Customs

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 06:42 PM
Dysole's Avatar
Dysole Dysole is offline
PuppetMaster & #2 Ranked CoNner
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Oregon Eugeneish area
Posts: 16,059
Images: 262
Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Message Received?

While I don't see the book of Mormon as canon, I think that's still similar to what I believe as far as the gospel to other nations. I think it's very possible a person could be following Jesus without even realizing it to be so. (I know C.S. Lewis thought as much) God can speak in many ways and in many places. I think the Bible might be the clearest depiction of the story of God interacting with humanity. I'm also a bit fuzzy on if people get do overs in the afterlife, but I will admit Rob Bell has given me enough that I recognize it's a possibility allowed by Scripture.

Ultimately for me, it's this. I don't know if someone who would've never heard of Jesus would be saved or not (again the precise set of actions for salvation seems to differ between a lot of New testament examples). I don't see any inherent reason why Scripture would exclude them from that group and I don't know any individual's heart, so I recognize it as a possibility, but wouldn't know what specific criteria would be used in that situation.

~Dysole, whose eschatology (end times theology) is unsurprisingly Panmillenialiasm (however it pans out, I'll be cool with that)
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 07:00 PM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Counting gray cells and coming up short... Also, I confess to being a fanboy.
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 25,546
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

I think the belief that “my faith is the only path to salvation,” or “my path might be the only path to salvation,” is precipitously dangerous and will, from time to time, express itself in human tragedy on a massive scale.

A person who wants to save me may very well struggle to treat me with respect. And a group of people trying to save my soul may be incredibly unkind, with the best of intentions.

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
= =
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 07:20 PM
Flash_19's Avatar
Flash_19 Flash_19 is online now
Frank Lloyd Wright of Hexes
 
Join Date: June 29, 2017
Location: USA - UT - American Fork
Posts: 818
Images: 1
Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Message Received?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Ultimately for me, it's this. I don't know if someone who would've never heard of Jesus would be saved or not (again the precise set of actions for salvation seems to differ between a lot of New testament examples). I don't see any inherent reason why Scripture would exclude them from that group and I don't know any individual's heart, so I recognize it as a possibility, but wouldn't know what specific criteria would be used in that situation.
Yeah, I totally see where you're coming from. I'd be curious to hear how you've understood the interaction between seeming differences with the requirements for salvation.

While I love the words of Paul, and believe in the importance of confessing Christ and believing in Him, I do believe that Christ Himself taught and exemplified specific things that we need to do in order to be saved as well. One of the most important of those would be baptism (maybe I shouldn't assume, but you seem to be familiar with the Bible enough that you'd be aware of Christ's teachings about baptism and how it's necessary to enter into the Kingdom of God - John 3). I believe that that step is necessary even for those who are dead - which might sound strange. But the Bible itself references the practice of doing baptisms on behalf of those who are dead (see 1 Corinthians 15:29) so that they can follow the example of Jesus Christ and receive that essential step for salvation.

My Map Thread
Maps for Online HS
My Customs

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 09:43 PM
Flash_19's Avatar
Flash_19 Flash_19 is online now
Frank Lloyd Wright of Hexes
 
Join Date: June 29, 2017
Location: USA - UT - American Fork
Posts: 818
Images: 1
Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I think the belief that my faith is the only path to salvation, or my path might be the only path to salvation, is precipitously dangerous and will, from time to time, express itself in human tragedy on a massive scale.

A person who wants to save me may very well struggle to treat me with respect. And a group of people trying to save my soul may be incredibly unkind, with the best of intentions.
I appreciate your thoughts, and I hope I don't come across as being arrogant in anything that I have shared, because that hasn't been my intent. Love should be the defining characteristic of a disciple of Christ, and unfortunately, many of us fall short when it comes to living up to that ideal.

My church doesn't claim to have a monopoly on truth. Truth and goodness is found everywhere, and I have met people of different faiths that I have admired for their commitment to the faith and truth they have. But, I do not believe that truth is relative. I believe there is a way that God intends for His children to live, and that He is the source of all truth. I think if truth was relative, God would be unjust. He gives us commandments and guidance so that we can know how to make it back to Him and receive all the blessings He has in store for us. God blesses His children for living their lives in accordance with the truth they have. I do not believe for one second that everyone who is not a member of my church is going to Hell to burn forever.

I guess I would sum it up like this: God has revealed all truths necessary for us to receive a fullness of His blessings (for example, the blessings of having an eternal family) and I do believe that that fullness of truth is found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but that God will bless all of His children everywhere as they live in accordance with the portion of truth that they have, and those blessings certainly include peace and happiness in the next life.

So, those are my thoughts. I'd love to hear what you think and why you feel that way.

My Map Thread
Maps for Online HS
My Customs

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 10:09 PM
Dysole's Avatar
Dysole Dysole is offline
PuppetMaster & #2 Ranked CoNner
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Oregon Eugeneish area
Posts: 16,059
Images: 262
Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Clarification

Sure. So if you look throughout Acts and such, salvation takes many different forms. Some people are baptized and saved, some aren't, some simply need to say something, others don't, then we have Romans which is typically the "requirements for salvation", but a literal reading would exclude anyone pre Jesus and we know that's not the case. Ultimately, I'm not sure how important the specific mechanism is and we're also told it's not dependent on specific actions either and yet the parable of sheep and goats specifically calls out actions as determinant of if someone's in or out.

It's part of the reason I'm not completely sure if it's a checkbox of things or if it's some more complex algorithm that would take into account a lot of factors. There's certainly plenty of competing theories in the salvation theology boxes. To put it in my own personal agnosticism on the issue, my understanding of God is such that They are not the type of being to have it be so narrow as to exclude people on "technicalities" and while I wouldn't call myself a universalist I can actually understand the logic of the position and don't think it's completely as off base as I used to.

Dunno if that answered your question or if I just rambled.

As to D_S's comment, I recall a good chunk of that in young me. Now I'm more concerned with showing what Jesus should look like than whether the person in front of me is "saved" or not. The inward focus helps me not be that person at least from my experience.

~Dysole, who admittedly holds a lot of her doctrinal positions loosely
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 10:55 PM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Counting gray cells and coming up short... Also, I confess to being a fanboy.
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 25,546
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Thanks for your interest, Flash_19. I’ll need some time to get back to you. No time until tomorrow night at the earliest. I believe you have touched upon one of the Great Questions, which is only indirectly related to the questions discussed elsewhere in the thread.

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
= =
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old August 23rd, 2018, 05:56 PM
Flash_19's Avatar
Flash_19 Flash_19 is online now
Frank Lloyd Wright of Hexes
 
Join Date: June 29, 2017
Location: USA - UT - American Fork
Posts: 818
Images: 1
Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
It's part of the reason I'm not completely sure if it's a checkbox of things or if it's some more complex algorithm that would take into account a lot of factors. There's certainly plenty of competing theories in the salvation theology boxes. To put it in my own personal agnosticism on the issue, my understanding of God is such that They are not the type of being to have it be so narrow as to exclude people on "technicalities" and while I wouldn't call myself a universalist I can actually understand the logic of the position and don't think it's completely as off base as I used to.

Dunno if that answered your question or if I just rambled.
Yeah, that answered my question. As for the checkbox of things versus the more complex algorithm thought, I would say both in a sense. I think God judges us based on our works and the desires of our hearts/how well we lived up to what we know.

Quote:
As to D_S's comment, I recall a good chunk of that in young me. Now I'm more concerned with showing what Jesus should look like than whether the person in front of me is "saved" or not. The inward focus helps me not be that person at least from my experience.

~Dysole, who admittedly holds a lot of her doctrinal positions loosely
That was very well said. Thanks!
I did have another question that I'm sure you've touched on somewhere else, but you refer to God as "they". I was curious as to why you do that if you don't mind me asking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Thanks for your interest, Flash_19. Ill need some time to get back to you. No time until tomorrow night at the earliest. I believe you have touched upon one of the Great Questions, which is only indirectly related to the questions discussed elsewhere in the thread.
No rush at all - whenever you have time is great!

My Map Thread
Maps for Online HS
My Customs

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old August 23rd, 2018, 08:32 PM
Dysole's Avatar
Dysole Dysole is offline
PuppetMaster & #2 Ranked CoNner
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Oregon Eugeneish area
Posts: 16,059
Images: 262
Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
God and Gender

I was already leaning that way until I came across an article that solidified it for me. The article asked "What gender is God?"

Now, most Christians would agree that God doesn't possess physical characteristics of either gender and while male imagery is often used, it's not a complete picture of God. (At the very least because Scripture uses both male and female words and imagery when talking about God) Many would state that it is the proper usage though and would pretty much never refer to God as female.

This article stated that in modern Christianity, God is male because our language does that. By using He, Father, or other masculine words to describe God, we are also imposing our cultural understandings of "man" onto God subconsciously. Using female pronouns would encounter a similar issue eventually, but most using female pronouns for God are typically trying to subvert expectations.

I used They to divorce myself from as many cultural understandings as I can and because I think it's more accurate given the scriptural usage of gender and God and the nature of the Trinity. I can't fully escape it, but I can try.

~Dysole, thinking her own experience with gender and non binary individuals helps her understand how much gender seeps into our culture
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old August 25th, 2018, 04:13 PM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Counting gray cells and coming up short... Also, I confess to being a fanboy.
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 25,546
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Proselytization is a complex subject and it can be approached from many angles. I'm going to start at an abstract level just because once I start spinning tales from my own experience, or talking about yours, or wandering around in the particulars with examples, it just becomes too granular for the way I want to begin.

On an abstract level, the place to start is consideration of the Other. Measuring the worthiness of your neighbor's soul instantly sets you apart from him, just by the act of judging. Is he less worthy of redemption than you are?

It almost doesn't matter what the answer is, because the very act of asking that question dehumanizes him. Once you know what's best for your neighbor, you necessarily presume to know what's best for him. On the smallest scale, you might urge your neighbor to consider trying your church, instead of his own. No harm in that, I'm sure.

On a larger scale, though, a group of people taking as an article of faith that it knows what's best for another group of people will easily slip into disrespect, at best, and cruelty, at worst. You see dangerous politics come from this place, as well. The politics of fear: identify the Other, tell the members of your audience that the Other is coming to steal their cookies. Congrats! You can now unify them against a common enemy, regardless of how realistic your presentation actually was.

Proselytizing is selling a car to a stranger, who may or may not be shopping for one. But for the proselytizing salesman, it is urgent to close the deal regardless. I'm happy to have your friendship, salesman. But keep your damned car, and your attitude that I need to buy it is really clouding my ability to see myself as a respected person, through your eyes. And a community of car salesmen, using the power of political (or social) influence to force others to buy cars, when some of us might be happy with no car, or with motorcycles or whatever, is deeply hostile.

You want to talk faith with me, do it at a place and time when I'm willing to talk faith. But that's not how proselytizing works. Instead it's putting it in your signature block, or whatever, planting a flag for strangers. You might as well be selling cars in your signature block.

Q: Why, then, DS, do you have the Flying Spaghetti Monster in your signature block?
A: Because I want all of our readers to know that there are those here who do not care what their faith is. I don't want people to think that, if they want to be a part of this community, they will find themselves surrounded on all sides by car salesmen.

On a larger scale, there is a hair's breadth between thinking you know what's right for your neighbor and compelling him, when you get the chance, to do it. And if you take it as an article of faith that you know better than he does, then what's stopping you? As a group?

No thank you. I prefer to start from a different place. I do not judge you, and when it comes time to engage in a conversation about how we will govern ourselves, my concern is that we don't do each other harm in this world. After we are gone from this world, after all, we will go our separate ways.

Finally, I am mindful that proselytizing has done some good in the world. That doesn't mean it hasn't done harm, sometimes on massive scales, and it doesn't mean we shouldn't constantly be trying to improve.

Much earlier in this thread, @marrowick pointed me to a video in which Penn Jillette spoke respectfully about someone trying to convert him. As I said at the time, it's one thing to approach someone who is open to the conversation, respectfully and personally, and have that conversation. As that man did with him. It's another thing to approach everyone on the street with your sales pitch. That's not respectful, and that's moving toward a place where I fear that you & yours would tell me & mine how to best follow your religion, through the power of the ballot box. And that's just mean. By which I mean, oppression.

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
= =

Last edited by Dad_Scaper; August 25th, 2018 at 04:16 PM. Reason: As long as this post is, it's still an oversimplification, as these kinds of posts often are.
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old August 25th, 2018, 04:46 PM
Dysole's Avatar
Dysole Dysole is offline
PuppetMaster & #2 Ranked CoNner
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Oregon Eugeneish area
Posts: 16,059
Images: 262
Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Used Cars

I feel you on the salesman thing. I think I said as much earlier. For me, the big shift from that to where I am now was realizing that people don't want to listen to your faith or any other deep insights you have on life unless they first trust you enough that you see them as a fellow human. I know that by creating the relationship first, I've been able to have some very good faith discussions with people who probably wouldn't have wanted that discussion without that relationship being there first.

~Dysole, who sits in a weird bridgey place with all her intersecting identities
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Off-Topic > General
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FOOD CAR_95 General 1 March 31st, 2008 10:01 PM
Pet food recall bad_calvin General 16 March 23rd, 2007 06:33 PM
Junk food monkeyfish General 86 September 28th, 2006 05:20 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:06 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.