Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Marvel Legends HeroScape > Comic Hero Custom Creations > C3G Project > C3G Library
C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #277  
Old July 16th, 2019, 09:46 PM
johnny139's Avatar
johnny139 johnny139 is offline
Never CoN a CoN man
 
Join Date: September 8, 2006
Location: USA - MA - South Shore
Posts: 30,036
Images: 27
johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth
Re: The Book of General Zod

My issue isn't with the idea of changing the card - well, it is, but I was already outvoted on that, so I'll accept it as inevitable - but with the exact implementation. I believe Zod could be made more fun by simply tweaking the implementation of his Spy power and dropping his price by a good chunk.

In particular, I think the Kryptonian Soldiers are undertested here, as that's probably going to be the most useful effect. So sticking at 380 is definitely a red flag for me at bare minimum. Lobster only had one Soldier in his first test, and Zod went down very quickly in the second. quozl stuck with just two per army, which introduces the Unique Squad problem - one goes down and you're suddenly at half efficiency. So we're essentially at two tests that used New Zod to his fullest, both from AV, who came out of it thinking he could probably use a bump. So, speaking purely on an evaluation level, I think we'd need some more tests with a bigger pool of Kryptonian Soldiers at his command.

Frankly, at this point it feels less like we're fixing Zod, and more like we're fixing the Kryptonian Soldiers. But maybe that's what people were hoping for? They're definitely the weakest link in his mini-faction.
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old July 16th, 2019, 09:48 PM
MrNobody's Avatar
MrNobody MrNobody is offline
Just A Head
 
Join Date: July 27, 2018
Location: USA - GA - Atlanta
Posts: 11,775
MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla MrNobody is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: The Book of General Zod

Valid points. I could do some more tests sometime this week if more data would be beneficial.
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old July 16th, 2019, 10:01 PM
Arch-vile's Avatar
Arch-vile Arch-vile is offline
 
Join Date: April 17, 2011
Location: USA - IL - Springfield
Posts: 15,903
Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth Arch-vile is a man of the cloth
Re: The Book of General Zod

That's a really good point johnny. A couple more games with Kryptonian Soldiers would help.

Personally I'm all for big changes when doing these re-evaluations. It's a change to the design anyway, so we might as well fix the entire faction as best as possible when a power isn't working as intended.
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old July 16th, 2019, 10:03 PM
japes's Avatar
japes japes is offline
A Man of Taste
 
Join Date: August 3, 2011
Location: USA - TX - Austin (SW)
Posts: 19,024
Images: 51
japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: The Book of General Zod

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
Never played the old version, but I found the new version very fun.
Do you think you would play the old version at 380? Let's say that this vote goes down (one Nay is all it takes for a finalization vote to fail). Do you think you'd draft or play this Zod in the future?
I feel that's an unfair question and not at all what Johnny is saying. No one's asking you to pick one of these versions at 380...that's an easy answer to everyone. But would you draft the new one at 380 vs the old one at say 340?

Also I'm not technically voting these days but I'd be with Johnny with a Nay here from personal experience. We have been playing original and at 400 with only changing the soldier option and he never felt out of place and this version even has a better Spy option than the original which is why I commented earlier about feeling 380 seemed off.

Edit: I did finally watch man of steel last week so an Army of kryptonite is something I'm looking forward to.
Reply With Quote
  #281  
Old July 16th, 2019, 10:13 PM
japes's Avatar
japes japes is offline
A Man of Taste
 
Join Date: August 3, 2011
Location: USA - TX - Austin (SW)
Posts: 19,024
Images: 51
japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: The Book of General Zod

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
That's a really good point johnny. A couple more games with Kryptonian Soldiers would help.

Personally I'm all for big changes when doing these re-evaluations. It's a change to the design anyway, so we might as well fix the entire faction as best as possible when a power isn't working as intended.
I'm the opposite as a rule. Any figure than can be "fixed" by just adjusting points is way more attractive to me. Anything that needs big changes just needs a new version.
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old July 16th, 2019, 10:56 PM
Karat's Avatar
Karat Karat is offline
His sweat is highly explosive
 
Join Date: September 14, 2010
Location: USA-Washington-Olympia
Posts: 17,633
Images: 51
Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Book of General Zod

I'm also a Nay in lieu of more testing. I think this one got pulled prematurely. There was no discussion and no vote about saying whether we had enough data or not.
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old July 16th, 2019, 10:57 PM
IAmBatman's Avatar
IAmBatman IAmBatman is offline
Best There Is! - C3G Con 2020 Champ
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Location: USA - AL - Montgomery
Posts: 113,504
Images: 110
IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: The Book of General Zod

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
My issue isn't with the idea of changing the card - well, it is, but I was already outvoted on that, so I'll accept it as inevitable - but with the exact implementation. I believe Zod could be made more fun by simply tweaking the implementation of his Spy power and dropping his price by a good chunk.
I'm glad you clarified. At the moment, your vote was only accomplishing blocking any changes on the card, so it's good that you came back and are at least suggesting an alternate possibility here.

Not to belabor the point (as I think you're going to find yourself outvoted on implementation as well) but I'm not sure what you mean by tweaking the implementation of the Spy power, other than perhaps encouraging people to play it as intended?

Not keen on seeing his price dropped a good chunk, both because it feels unthematic for him to be way cheaper than Superman and because 40-60 points doesn't really do anything for his faction or his viability within it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
In particular, I think the Kryptonian Soldiers are undertested here, as that's probably going to be the most useful effect. So sticking at 380 is definitely a red flag for me at bare minimum. Lobster only had one Soldier in his first test, and Zod went down very quickly in the second. quozl stuck with just two per army, which introduces the Unique Squad problem - one goes down and you're suddenly at half efficiency. So we're essentially at two tests that used New Zod to his fullest, both from AV, who came out of it thinking he could probably use a bump. So, speaking purely on an evaluation level, I think we'd need some more tests with a bigger pool of Kryptonian Soldiers at his command.
More tests seems like a fair request and I'm on board with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
Frankly, at this point it feels less like we're fixing Zod, and more like we're fixing the Kryptonian Soldiers. But maybe that's what people were hoping for? They're definitely the weakest link in his mini-faction.
Can't it be both? The way to fix the Kryptonian Soldiers is through Zod and the way to fix Zod is by having him work better with the Kryptonian Soldiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
Never played the old version, but I found the new version very fun.
Do you think you would play the old version at 380? Let's say that this vote goes down (one Nay is all it takes for a finalization vote to fail). Do you think you'd draft or play this Zod in the future?
I feel that's an unfair question and not at all what Johnny is saying. No one's asking you to pick one of these versions at 380...that's an easy answer to everyone. But would you draft the new one at 380 vs the old one at say 340?
Before johnny posted a clarification, that's exactly what his vote was accomplishing. A Nay to the tested changes would be a Nay to alteration here, meaning that's the option we'd be left with.

I'm glad he DID clarify, though, and I think my questioning may have gotten him to do so. I don't think my questioning was at all unfair based on his initial vote, though.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old July 16th, 2019, 11:02 PM
johnny139's Avatar
johnny139 johnny139 is offline
Never CoN a CoN man
 
Join Date: September 8, 2006
Location: USA - MA - South Shore
Posts: 30,036
Images: 27
johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth johnny139 is a man of the cloth
Re: The Book of General Zod

For the Spy power - yes, essentially just a wording clarification to make sure it's played as was originally intended.

For Kryptonian Soldier stuff, my concern is that if that option becomes his obvious "best choice," his point cost and army builds will be shaped around that combination, and what viability he has as a generalist Kryptonian leader (which, admittedly, isn't much to begin with) will be sort of tossed aside. I think a smaller tweak to the Soldier option (moving with one and attacking with another, moving two OR attacking with two, moving OR attacking with two) would be more moderate, not drive a major point increase, and help keep his three leadership options balanced.
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old July 16th, 2019, 11:03 PM
Yodaking's Avatar
Yodaking Yodaking is offline
C3G Landlord
 
Join Date: March 7, 2008
Posts: 31,525
Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth
Re: The Book of General Zod

We already voted to change this card, and to make the change that was tested. Trying to redo that vote now during a final editing vote is in poor taste. I agree in holding up the Final Editing vote over cost concerns though and would have done so myself if I still had a vote.

I see the same thing Johnny just highlighted about the new version not being tested with 3+ soldiers much, or conversely 3+ spies. I don't see much value in mixing the soldiers & spies together, either sell out on doing one thing or the other if you are trying to win.

It looked to me after Arch's tests that 400 seems fair for the new changes, and I would have thought that vote would have passed no problem. No longer seeing 380 being realistic for new Zod. If more tests are needed, then these would be the two army tests I'd suggest running.

Game 1: Zod@400, Kryptonian Soldier x4 = 1200 points.

Game 2: Zod@400, Ursa, Kryptonian Infiltrator x2 [950] + Zoom = 1200 points.

Put them up against some JL armies. One with Superman, one without. First army is really simple, just 2 soldiers every time until you are down to 1 soldier, then Zod joins the fight and tries to clean up whatever is left in play.

Second army takes a bit more finesse. Initially Zoom gets 2OM's while Zod just gets one. Have Zoom run around keeping the opponent focused on him, while Zod orders Ursa to advance into the fight. Hopefully by the time Zoom goes down, one or more of the Infiltrators have dropped into the fight and Zod will be getting all the OM's with Ursa & and at least 1 Infiltrator already adj. to opponents figures. Use the unblockable option when it looks attractive, normal bonding when that looks like the better play. Zod once again plays clean up.
Reply With Quote
  #286  
Old July 16th, 2019, 11:18 PM
quozl's Avatar
quozl quozl is offline
Silly quozl, dinosaurs are for orcs!
 
Join Date: January 11, 2008
Location: USA - WA - Vancouver
Posts: 24,978
Images: 123
Blog Entries: 3
quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: The Book of General Zod

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karat View Post
I'm also a Nay in lieu of more testing. I think this one got pulled prematurely. There was no discussion and no vote about saying whether we had enough data or not.
Isn't that what this vote is for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Van Ness View Post
I highly recommend C3V and C3G customs!
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old July 16th, 2019, 11:22 PM
Karat's Avatar
Karat Karat is offline
His sweat is highly explosive
 
Join Date: September 14, 2010
Location: USA-Washington-Olympia
Posts: 17,633
Images: 51
Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun Karat is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Book of General Zod

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karat View Post
I'm also a Nay in lieu of more testing. I think this one got pulled prematurely. There was no discussion and no vote about saying whether we had enough data or not.
Isn't that what this vote is for?
Except it was posted in the Playtesting thread that he was pulled prior to this vote.
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old July 16th, 2019, 11:25 PM
IAmBatman's Avatar
IAmBatman IAmBatman is offline
Best There Is! - C3G Con 2020 Champ
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Location: USA - AL - Montgomery
Posts: 113,504
Images: 110
IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: The Book of General Zod

I mean, that doesn't mean we can't put him back up. I probably pulled him because I thought we were good and I try to be efficient with clearing space there, because there's so much in testing.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Marvel Legends HeroScape > Comic Hero Custom Creations > C3G Project > C3G Library
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best General Romanus Competitive Armies Discussion 10 October 21st, 2011 05:08 AM
Best General-Specific General? LeviofDoom Competitive Armies Discussion 44 May 7th, 2010 11:00 PM
Who is Aquilla? General question for General forum ;) Leif Kicker HeroScape General Discussion 27 June 20th, 2008 11:48 PM
General or No General Garet Jaxx Competitive Armies Discussion 38 April 25th, 2008 08:18 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:28 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.