The Book of Tor-Kul-Na

[Chimpy]

You know, I think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill here. Even if you had 20 robo rats lined up in a nice row the affect of Tor-Kul-Na's possible super stomping wouldn't matter that much.

Why? Because the likelihood that Tor-Kul-na will role an 8+ more than six times is next to nil. That is why I don't buy the whole "put Eldgrim on him" strategy either. The fact of the matter is, the dice are set so that Tork usually won't kill more than two figures a turn. The math just doesn't support it otherwise.

[dbzking]

No free move he only has 6
He must end his move on the space occupied buy opponents figure for the fact of the name of the attack trample stomp which applies he is jumping up and down on the figure to do this he must be able to reach the space the figure is on. if the figure is 7 spaces away he cant end his move there so no trample stomp but I will be adjacent and hit you with 6 unless you’re a samurai then I wait tell next turn and stomp you

Dbzking

[Ultarium]

Originally Posted by Chimpy

Why? Because the likelihood that Tor-Kul-na will role an 8+ more than six times is next to nil.

Its a 4.8% chance of getting 8+ 7 times in a row

[T-bomb]

What's the percent chance if you have Su-Bak-Na as well for getting 6 in a row?

[Ultarium]

Originally Posted by T-bomb

What's the percent chance if you have Su-Bak-Na as well for getting 6 in a row?

11.7649%

[Nooblar]

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

This requires an official ruling about as much as a fish requires a bicycle.

I do not see any strong arguments that would suggest that there is a free movement. You guys are reading that into the wording. It simple isn't there.

Exactly. Free move is almost certainly NOT the intent, but I'm saying that without a clearer description on the card we cannot make an airtight argument against it. All reasoning presented so far relies on "intent" and common sense.

All the highlighted sentence is saying is that if you use this power and you destory the figure, TKN HAS to move there. The wording does not say that he gets a free move. It says move him there; as in if you used the power and you destroyed a figure, you do not have the option. TKN must move into the destroyed figure's space.

Other cards make reference to "moving" figures, but it doesn't count as part of that figure's move phase. I think this is the root of confusion in this discussion--you can "move" a figure and you can "move" a figure. See what I'm saying?

Ask yourself: Did Hasbro intend for this figure to trample endless scores of figures in one turn? the only logical answer is NO.

Definitely, but the current wording of the card is vague enough that it's already spawned this whole huge debate. To me, that is an obvious sign that the wording needs revision. My engineering professor told me, "College graduates must write so that they are able to be understood. Engineers must write so that nobody can misunderstand them." Apparently this goes for game designers, too.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Ultarium

Its a 4.8% chance of getting 8+ 7 times in a row

4.8% is roughly the chance of rolling a 20 on the D20. So not that common, but certainly common enough to matter. And this is without any bonuses, such as Glyphs of SBN.

Oh, and Nooblar, I've seen bigger debates on here over less. There is, sadly, no such thing as power wording that NOBODY can misunderstand. If you don't believe me, try making a custom or two. There's always someone who can misunderstand - and it might just surprise the heck out of you. I know it surprises the heck out of me that there's even a debate here at all.

[Nooblar]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Oh, and Nooblar, I've seen bigger debates on here over less. There is, sadly, no such thing as power wording that NOBODY can misunderstand. If you don't believe me, try making a custom or two. There's always someone who can misunderstand - and it might just surprise the heck out of you. I know it surprises the heck out of me that there's even a debate here at all.

Yeah, I think it's the result of limited card space. And TV violence.

I think TKN can be at least improved, but I'm hard-pressed to get all the info into the available space. Hmm... I see where the designers would have got to the point of pulling hair out if they tried to add an explicit limitation of movement using Trample. I just can't do it without reworking the entire text.

But my previous argument still stands, I think. Whether or not a careful examination reveals the answer, the fact that so many people are confused (or have doubts) is probably grounds for re-thinking the way it's worded (or at least an official ruling, to satisfy the lawyers and little kiddies who get confused easily). For something this complex, there will never be a perfectly and universally understood meaning--not in the space of one card's special power text area. Kudos to the designers getting it this far.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

There is, sadly, no such thing as power wording that NOBODY can misunderstand. If you don't believe me, try making a custom or two. There's always someone who can misunderstand - and it might just surprise the heck out of you. I know it surprises the heck out of me that there's even a debate here at all.

Yeah. No matter how simple and uncluttered the wording of a special power, someone will always misunderstand it, either as an honest mistake or trying to force it to mean what they want it to mean.

I think that on a lot of the earlier cards, the designers didn't try hard enough to solve problems on the card without requiring recourse to customer support or expert opinions. They're getting better, though. When you look at similar powers on older and newer cards, the newer one is often tightened up a bit. I think that Kato's command power, Doom's mind exchange, Marcu's eternal hate, and now Trample Stomp are all examples of powers that could have been infuriating to figure out, but aren't so bad as they stand because the answers to some major "yeah, but what about" scenarios are on the card, not in secondary sources.

The answer is on the card. We don't need customer support or even a dictionary. In Heroscape, when a power increases the spaces in a figure's normal move, it comes right out and says that. Ullar's Amulet has "may move 2 additional spaces." Charging Assault says the samurai "add 3 to their move number." Marcus lets soldiers move "one additional space." If Trample Stomp granted extra spaces within TKN's normal move, its text would have said so explicitly.

[bluekitsune13]

All right. Here is my reasoning for the free move (and another question I thought about -- disengagement) This is copied right from the card. (I know I'm over analyzing this, but this is what I believe the power really means).

At any point while moving, Tor-Kul-Na may choose a small or medium figure that is adjacent, on the same level, and on a space where Tor-Kul-Na may end his movement.

--The figure must satisfy those conditions because he is a double spaced figure. If he tramples the figure, he might move 1 space. It requires at least 2 movement points for a double spaced figure to get up to higher ground. So that's why they said that.

Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-7, the figure is safe and Tor-Kul-Na's movement ends.

--So, if you fail, he stops, and can only attack now.

If you roll a 8-20, the chosen figure receives one wound. If the wound destroys the figure, move Tor-Kul-Na onto the space that figure occupied , and you may continue Tor-Kul-Na's movement.

--Here's the reason I think it is a free move. It says If the wound destroys the figure, [you must] move Tor-Kul-Na onto the space the figure occupied, and you may continue Tor-Kul-Na's [normal] movement." I put some extra words in brackets to help you understand. Since there is no "may," that implies that you have to move into that figure's space if you destroy it. It also says that afterward you may continue his normal movement.

For example, Tor-Kul-Na moves 4 spaces, then comes to a Knight of Weston. He rolls a 12, and wounds him. He moves onto that knight's space, and he still has 2 movement points left over. Now, 2 hexes away is another knight. Tor-Kul-Na attempts to trample that second knight and rolls a 16. It took him all 6 movement points to get to that second knight, but he succeeded in destroying him. So, like the card says, he must move into the second knight's space, effectively increasing his movement for that turn.

If the chosen figure is not destroyed, Tor-Kul-Na's movement ends. Tor-Kul-Na must be on a space where he can end movement each time he uses this power.

-- This last part is just to clarify it again. It also prevents you from trampling a figure when Tor-Kul-Na is moving down terrain (because one hex would technically be on level 1, and the other hex on level 2. He can't end his move like that, so they put in an extra line).


Now then, another part that I'll bring up that I don't think had been mentioned was disengagement. If Tor-Kul-Na moves into a figure's space after trampling him, it could make him leave engagement with enemy figures. The card doesn't say anything about disengagement attacks, which would let me believe we have another Taelord (as in, if the card's power doesn't mention taking disengagement rolls, then they don't receive any). Please correct me if I'm wrong though, but I did not see anything that meantioned disengagement.

[Nooblar]

Originally Posted by underling

The range of the stomp is limited to 6 hexes, as that is TKN's movement rate, but the number of times TKN may stomp is limited only by the number of units in that radius.

That would work if move was a radius. Instead, it's "total distance moved" not "net displacement." So moving a figure back and forth on two adjacent hexes won't grant you infinite move.

bk13, you make a great point about disengagement and precedent. I'm pretty sure this was an oversight and not intentional. It will be interesting to see if they change TKN's card to rectify this.

[Nooblar]

Originally Posted by jcb231

The card doesn't say that Tor-Kul-Na can't fly. Can he fly?

Touché

But the point is that there's been a precedent set for movement abilities that they must specifically include that stipulation. Iz all I iz sayin.