The Book of Master Splinter

[Ronin]

I'd prefer just giving him 5 attack and making Breaking Balance a strictly-defensive power, but I can also work with this version, most recently posted by LO:

BREAKING BALANCE
When an adjacent opponent's figure rolls attack dice for a normal attack against Master Splinter, or rolls defense dice against an attack from Master Splinter, if they roll more skulls than shields, you may add one automatic shield to Splinter's roll and if Master Splinter is not destroyed, that figure receives a wound.

The current discussion looks to me like it's getting into the weeds a little bit. I don't think I have any major theme concerns either way, but the power would definitely read a lot more cleanly/intuitively if it were a purely defensive power.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

I'd prefer just giving him 5 attack and making Breaking Balance a strictly-defensive power, but I can also work with this version, most recently posted by LO:

The current discussion looks to me like it's getting into the weeds a little bit. I don't think I have any major theme concerns either way, but the power would definitely read a lot more cleanly/intuitively if it were a purely defensive power.

Doing that would, IMO, loose a tonne of theme, to me - I don't want Splinter's attacks to feel like just regular heavy hits, that doesn't feel right for the character, as japes was saying. I'd even be happier dropping his Attack to 3 and making it a shield or skull than making BB purely defensive, but that starts to feel a bit too flukey to me - this is the version I'm happiest with

[Lazy Orang]

Just ran some tests against Leo with this version of Breaking Balance:

BREAKING BALANCE
When an adjacent opponent's figure rolls attack dice for a normal attack against Master Splinter, or rolls defense dice against an attack from Master Splinter, if they roll more skulls than shields, you may add one automatic shield to Splinter's roll and if Master Splinter is not destroyed, that figure receives a wound.

And I've got to say, he feels pretty much perfect now! Rather than getting demolished by his student, it's pretty close with a definite edge to Splinter. Taking into account neither can use their support powers, Leo's going to be better offensively most of the time (two attacks of 5 > one attack of 4 with a potential auto-wound - unless you're fighting Lanterns, of course ), and Splinter's probably better defensively against most melee normal attackers while Leo's going to be better at defending against range or special attacks, this is feeling fair and not too much for the old rat.

Map: Blackroot (no glyphs)

TEST 1
Units: Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
This was feeling better - in the first round, Leo managed to get a wound on Splinter having taken two to BB, one on offence and one on defence. The extra skull helped keep Splinter defend a bit better when Leo overextends, which feels thematic - Splinter shouldn’t just fold while doing some damage in the mean time. Splinter won in a landslide, but that was due to getting an initiative switch and a really lucky attack roll - all skulls, Leo rolls only two shields, taking two wounds from the attack and one to BB, Leo falls.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Master Splinter with 1/5 wounds.

TEST 2
Units: Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
Splinter was wearing Leo down with Breaking Balance until his pupil got in two deadly 4 skull attacks in one turn, and Splinter’s defence just wasn’t up to snuff - the auto-shield helps, but it can only help so much when your opponent can’t stop rolling skulls and you can barely manage to scrape a shield together.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R1T6: Leonardo with 4/5 wounds.

TEST 3
Units: Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
Splinter managed basically the same dodgy hit he used to finish the first game to open this one - Leo was never going to claw this one back
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R1T6: Master Splinter with 1/5 wounds.

TEST 4
Units: Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
This one was great - both sides did damage, both sides held up solidly, and it was really close and even right to the end - just managing to completely block one blow from Leo where he overextended himself, and to mostly escape another couple of blows where Leo was absolutely vicious, allowed Splinter to scrape out a close victory. He wouldn’t have done before the change.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T3: Master Splinter with 4/5 wounds.

TEST 5
Units: Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
Leo failed to entirely block one of Splinter’s attacks, taking two wounds from it (one normally and one from BB). Leo struggles whenever that happens, and when you also consider that Splinter blocked a blow or two where he’d overextended, Leo wasn’t winning this one. He did manage to make his Master break a sweat, though.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R1T6: Master Splinter with 3/5 wounds.

TEST 6
Units:Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
Leo was careful on defence, neither losing his balance not failing to block his Master’s blows, and he only overextended on the offence when it counted, twice to strike Splinter successfully and one to make the finishing blow. He even once managed to wound Splinter without overextending - something he’s done a few times, and which is always a good result. Splinter is impressed.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Leonardo with 2/5 wounds.

TEST 7
Units: Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
Splinter did the same thing he did in the first game - it was going okay, fairly evenly, then he makes an all skull strike which Leo fails to block to inflict three wounds and finish Leo off.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Master Splinter with 2/5 wounds.

TEST 8
Units:Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
Leo’s first two strikes were savage, inflicting two wounds each - if it weren’t for the auto-shield from his overextending, he’d have taken the rat out in his first turn of attacking. He took some damage from that, and for failing to keep his footing on the defence, but it was worth it - Splinter just couldn’t quite keep up.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R1T6: Leonardo with 3/5 wounds.

TEST 9
Units: Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
This went stupidly - first, Leo blanked against a one skull attack from Splinter, taking two wounds. Then, in his round of attacking, Leo managed to roll 4 skulls to no shields for his second attack, inflicting three wounds while taking one himself. Leo then blocked Splinter’s next attack, but Splinter feinted and took his footing, nearly finishing the turtle, before his son immediately retaliated with a 4 skull attack which Splinter, once again, failed to roll a shield against. I... just have no words for this one.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R1T6 Leonardo with 4/5 wounds.

TEST 10
Units: Master Splinter vs. Leonardo (210)
Splinter managed to block most of Leo’s strikes the first round, only taking one wound while consistently breaking his balance and waring him down. Leo, almost depleted at the start of the second round, poured all of his strength into one hail mary strike - it was devastating, inflicting three wounds on his master, but, thanks to the auto-skull, not quite enough to finish him, and Leo was brought down.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Master Splinter with 4/5 wounds.

EDIT: Just ran a handful against Shang-Chi - I really think we're good here with the change. He's strong, but not overpowered or beyond the realms of the other martial artists of his caliber. He's feeling perfectly thematic for the character in combat, IMO.

TEST 11
Units: Master Splinter vs. Shang-Chi (230)
MMA’s a pretty good counter to Breaking Balance and Splinter, both on defence (Splinter’s low attack isn’t too hard to block or counterstrike) and offence (one bonus skull which can either counteract Splinter’s auto-shield if BB triggers and also act as an extra skull that doesn’t count towards whether your Balance is Broken). Shang-Chi got some pretty bad defence rolls, which resulted in him losing, but it was still close, and I think I an say that Yodaking’s concerns about Breaking Balance working against skilled martial artists aren’t a problem - yes, Splinter can get them off balance and exploit it, which I think he’s skilled enough to be able to do, but it’s nowhere near as easy or without risk as it is against a regular combatant.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Master Splinter with 4/5 wounds.

TEST 12
Units: Master Splinter vs. Shang-Chi (230)
Splinter’s first blow was brutally counter struck, and he received three wounds from one strike. He managed to take out Shang’s balance a couple of times after that for a couple of wounds, but the Master of Kung-Fu was bound to beat the Master of Ninjitsu after that.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Shang-Chi with 2/5 wounds.

TEST 13
Units: Master Splinter vs. Shang-Chi (230)
Shang-Chi’s first blow was blocked, but that was followed by him countering Splinter’s next blow for a wound before striking him again for one. Splinter retaliated, though - he managed a 4 skull attack, and, as we know from Leo’s fights with him, if Splinter hits with one of those and you don’t make a solid block, you’re in a world of hurt. Shang-Chi, unfortunately, didn’t - 1 shield only, bumped to 2 for MMA, but that doesn’t count towards Balance Breaking, and the Master of Kung-Fu took three wounds. In the next round, Shang-Chi’s first blow was utterly uneventful, but Splinter then made an absolute feint - no skulls rolled at all! Shang-Chi countered it agressively, rolling a shield and inflicting two wounds with counterstrike - one more skull would have been all he’d have needed to kill the rat, but instead, Splintger took advantage and took his foe’s balance, inflicting another wound, leaving them both a wound off death. Shang-Chi’s next attack was strong - 3 skulls +1 auto - but overextended; Splinter rolled 3 skulls +1 auto, blocked, and made Shang-Chi pay for sacrificing his balance for a killing blow, taking him out.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T3: Master Splinter with 4/5 wounds.

TEST 14
Units: Master Splinter vs. Shang-Chi (230)
Splinter’s first blow was blocked, but not quite carefully enough, and he took the martial artist’s balance. Shang-Chi’s first blow was careful, and as strong as it could be without him overextending himself, and he inflicted a wound on Splinter. Splinter then made another feint, striking but rolling no skulls - Shang-Chi didn’t fall for it this time, and maintained his balance while countering the blow and striking Splinter for three wounds. Shang-Chi’s next blow failed to hurt Splinter, but he managed an initiative switch and struck again, finishing the rat.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Shang-Chi with 1/5 wounds.

TEST 15
Units: Master Splinter vs. Shang-Chi (230)
Splinter’s first blow was another feint, with no actual weight behind it, and, once again, Shang-Chi didn’t fall for it, striking Splinter for 3 wounds in response. He sacrificed his footing for a winning strike, but it was worth it - he brought the rat down before he had time to break his balance.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R1T4: Shang-Chi with 0/5 wounds.

[Lazy Orang]

I'm going to suggest moving this guy forwards to Army Testing with the change to Balance Breaking shown above at 230 Points.

[Lazy Orang]

And just for good measure, here are a few vs. Conan.

TEST 16
Units: Master Splinter vs. Conan (200)
These guys are an interesting case of countering each other’s powers - Breaking Balance is great for cutting through Battle Hardened, but Barrage of Blades can cut through the defensive element of Breaking Balance while still being deadly. All in all, I’d say Conan probably has the advantage, but let’s give ‘em another round or so!
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Conan with 4/6 wounds.

TEST 17
Units: Master Splinter vs. Conan (200)
Splinter was lucky here, blocking most of Conan’s blows, inflicting 3 wounds on his first blow and managing an initiative switch. All the luck was with him.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T1: Master Splinter with 4/5 wounds.


TEST 18
Units: Master Splinter vs. Conan (200)
Splinter’s been getting surprisingly good luck blocking Baraage of Blades - more than I expect is normal. That being said, Conan pulled through.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? R2T2: Conan with 4/6 wounds.

[Yodaking]

Conan is a handful one on one in a melee fight. It is the high number of ranged attacks, particularly ranged fliers in C3G, that keeps him in check once you get to the team games.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Conan is a handful one on one in a melee fight. It is the high number of ranged attacks, particularly ranged fliers in C3G, that keeps him in check once you get to the team games.

Honestly, I think the same's probably going to be said for Splinter, though of course they work very differently. Knowing the character, that feels perfectly thematic to me.

[Tornado]

Certainly two greats in hand to hand combat though Conan is in his prime and Splinter is an old rat.

I bet Speedball, Azrael and original Batman with a hot d20 could fair as well.

Splinter's value is solidly set into a Turtle build and that is where the true balance must lie.

Good stuff here L_O.

[Lazy Orang]

Army Test 1
Map: Ivy’s Greenhouse (no glyphs)
Armies:
Master Splinter (230), Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello, Michelangelo, Martian Manhunter (vI) (1230 points)
vs.
Professor X, Cylops, Beast, Jean Grey, Phoenix, Iceman, Angel (Warren Worthington) (1,230 points)

Spoiler Alert!

Overview of Master Splinter’s performance:
Damage inflicted through normal attacks: None
Order Markers retrieved through Wisdom of the Rat: Order Marker 2 burned through Turtle Power! in Round 3 and then placed on Master Splinter. Order Marker 2 burned through Turtle Power! in Round 4 and then placed on Master Splinter. Order Marker 2 burned through Turtle Power! in Round 5 and then placed on Master Splinter.
D20 rolls swung through Wisdom of the Rat: 1 Cowabunga! roll, combined with Ninja Focus
Times switched with one of his sons through Father’s Devotion: None
Wounds blocked through Breaking Balance: 1 from Phoenix, 1 from Beast
Damage inflicted through Breaking Balance when defending with Splinter: 2 on Phoenix, 1 on Beast.
Damage inflicted through Breaking Balance when attacking with Splinter: None

Round One

The X-Men claim the initiative, and Angel flies Cyclops forwards, and Iceman slides forwards.
J’onn advances, before commanding Splinter and Leonardo to advance onto the road as well, Leo to the north, Splinter to the south.
Cyclops blasts a tree with his eyes, causing it to collapse on J’onn, inflicting a wound. Jean Grey advances.
J’onn maintains his position and commands each of the Turtles to advance onto the road.
Cyclops repositions slightly to get a direct line of fire on J’onn, firing an Optic Beam in his general direction, failing to harm him. Jean Grey advances.
J’onn flies in to strike Cyclops in melee from low ground. The blow is blocked, but he knocks the mutant backwards into a tree. Cyke takes a wound from the impact, and the tree collapses on Jean Grey, inflicting a wound on her, and burns Angel and Cyclops with Phoenix Fire. J’onn commands Don, Splinter and Mikey to advance, the first two to the south and Mikey to the north.

Round Two

The X-Men claim the initiative, and Jean charges J’onn, throwing him to low ground, inflicting a wound with the impact before striking him for a wound. Cyclops circles around and fires a blast in J’onn’s direction, inflicting a wound.
J’onn moves to height and strikes Jean for two wounds, and survives the Phoenix Fire flash. Raphael, Splinter, Michelangelo and Leonardo advance, the first two to the south, the top two to the north.
Jean throws J’onn to low ground, inflicting a wound with the impact before striking him to no effect. Cyclops runs to the northern bridge and fires a blast at Leonardo and Michelangelo, inflicting a single wound on Michelangelo.
J’onn claims height on and strikes Angel, inflicting two wounds before Angel flies away next to Beast. J’onn commands Donatello forwards.
Jean fails to throw J’onn, before knocking him out and eliminating the enemy’s last turn. Cyclops fires a blast at Leonardo and Michelangelo, inflicting a wound on Mikey.

Round Three

The X-Men claim the initiative, and Cyke fires another blast but fails to hurt anyone. Jean fails to throw or strike Leonardo.
Leo takes command with Turtle Power. He burns the X on Donatello, who runs up the road and Staff Vaults towards Iceman, striking him twice with an attack of 3 to no avail. He burns the 2 on Michelangelo, who charges Cyclops. His first blow is blocked, but he shouts 'Cowabunga!’ and strikes again, inflicting a wound on Cyclops. Master Splinter retrives OM 2, placing it on his card. Leonardo leaps towards Jean Grey, knocking her out and taking a wound with Phoenix Fire. Phoenix rises as a result, and he strikes her, but is blocked.
Cyclops blasts Mikey, but misses wildly at point blank range. Phoenix fails to make a Psionic Blast against Mikey and Leo, before striking Leo for a wound.
Splinter runs up the road.
Cyclops blasts Mikey to no effect. Phoenix fails a Psionic Blast, before striking Leonardo for a wound.
Raph leaps forwards.

Round Four

The Turtles claim the initiative, and Leo takes charge with Turtle Power. He activates Don with the X - Don breaks engagement with Iceman, receiving a wound and dropping his Gauntlet, before Staff Vaulting to height and striking Iceman twice, inflicting two wounds, causing Angel to fly Beast forwards. He burns the 3 on Mikey, who strikes Cyclops but is blocked. He then burns the 2 on Raph, who leaps towards Phoenix and strikes her twice to no avail, causing Angel to fly back and pick up the Anti-Matter Gauntlet. Master Splinter retrieves and claims the Order Marker 2. Leo then leaps towards Cyclops and knocks him out.
Phoenix blasts Mikey with a Psionic Blasts, throwing him into the water and inflicting a wound, before she strikes Raph for a wound. Beast charges Leonardo, who blocks his blow.
Splinter charges Phoenix and Beast, striking Phoenix to no avail.
Phoenix fails to Psionically Blast Raph before striking Splinter - she inflicts a wound, but he breaks her balance, inflicting a wound and triggering Phoenix Fire, which fails to hurt any of the three figures next to her. Beast strikes Splinter for two wounds as Splinter rolls no shields, but also suffers from broken balance.
Phoenix once again fails her Psionic Blast before striking Splinter to no avail. Beast strikes Splinter for a wound, avoiding Breaking Balance.

Round Five

The Turtles claim the initiative, and Leo burns the 2 on Mikey, who leaps into the fray and strikes Beast to no avail, before Cowabungaing thanks to tonnes of boosts (roll of 9 + 3 for adjacent figures + 1 for Turtle Focus + 1 for Wisdom of the Rat gave him the 14 he needed as a minimum! ) and striking Beast again, inflicting a wound. Master Splinter reclaims the Order Marker, taking it for himself. Leo burns the X on Raph, who leaps to the other side of Beast and strikes him twice from low ground, inflicting a wound. Leo then strikes Beast twice to no avail.
Phoenix fails to use her Psionic Wave, then strikes Splinter, overextending as he blocks and taking a wound. Her Phoenix Fire fails to harm anyone. Beast then knocks Splinter out, eliminating the Turtles’ next turn before striking all three Turtles next to him, one by one, only managing to inflict a wound on Michelangelo.
Phoenix’s Psionic Wave fails once again, and she strikes Michelangelo for a wound, knocking him out, before Beast strikes Leo and Raph, inflicting a wound on Raphael.
Raphael, thanks to the boosts from having all six members of his team injured or knocked out, including himself, and the boost from Leonardo’s Ninja Focus, flies into a rage, claiming equal height with Beast and striking him twice, knocking him out, before striking Phoenix twice and inflicting a wound, causing her to burn him with her Phoenix Fire.
Phoenix blasts Raph backwards with a Psionic Wave, though she fails to hurt him, before blasting Leonardo, knocking him out. Iceman tries, and fails, to freeze Donatello.

Round Six

Raphael claims the initiative before charging Iceman, striking him twice and inflicting a wound.
Phoenix engages Raphael and fails her Psionic Wave (she’s been getting terrible luck for that all game), before striking him for a wound. Iceman fails to Deep Freeze Raphael.
Raph flies into a rage, knocking out Iceman before going after Phoenix, inflicting a wound.
Angel fails to move Raph with the Anti-Grav Gauntlet. Phoenix blasts him back with a Psionic Wave, inflicting a wound, before knocking him out with her normal attack, eliminating the Turtles’ last turn.
Angel throws Don to low ground with the Gauntlet, inflicting a wound, before Phoenix knocks him out.

X-Men victorious - Phoenix 4 wound, Angel 3 wounds, Professor X unwounded.

Overview: Honestly, I felt a little disappointed. He’s really close, but I’m not certain he’s quite there. The extra turn per round is certainly really nice, but not overpowered, I have no issues there, and I liked the way he could protect his sons. I love Breaking Balance, but honestly... it felt like he folded a bit easily there, which doesn't feel right for Splinter. Maybe I'm just getting bad luck, but I don't know... I'd still like to keep the option of bumping his Defence to 6 on the table. I can't see that resulting in him going beyond 250, which is my max here - honestly, right now, he's feeling more like 200/210, which feels a bit too low for him.
My other concern is that Splinter dropping doesn't feel quite... important enough. Whenever he's injured or taken out in the cartoon, it feels like a major event, a combination of an ‘oh $#1T’ moment and an opportunity for his sons to get REALLY (and justifiably) angry. I'm almost tempted to add a line, probably to Father's Devotion, saying that if he's destroyed all Turtles you control add one to their attack and subtract one from their defence, to make it feel consequential when he falls.

[Arkham]

Adding another ability onto one of his powers is pushing it IMO, as it's already stuffed. Not saying it's not a neat idea though.

All things considered, it looks like it was a close game, 2 of the 3 remaining surviving figures were only 1 wound away, and Professor X by himself would have been torn apart. As for Splinter's affect on the game, he provided 3 extra turns, 3 wounds caused on defense, 2 wounds avoided, and added to a Cowabunga! roll. Not that bad, especially considering he likely underperformed on offense based on what his average should be doing, and his Father's Devotion went unused.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Adding another ability onto one of his powers is pushing it IMO, as it's already stuffed. Not saying it's not a neat idea though.

All things considered, it looks like it was a close game, 2 of the 3 remaining surviving figures were only 1 wound away, and Professor X by himself would have been torn apart. As for Splinter's affect on the game, he provided 3 extra turns, 3 wounds caused on defense, 2 wounds avoided, and added to a Cowabunga! roll. Not that bad, especially considering he likely underperformed on offense based on what his average should be doing, and his Father's Devotion went unused.

I agree with everything Arkham said here. The fact that he didn't use one of his more annoying powers and he didn't cause a single wound on Attack (either through Normal or Breaking Balance) seems like just bad luck. How many times did he attack. Hard to believe he didn't get a auto wound in there with any of his attacks.

[Yodaking]

One card just can't have everything a character can or could do. We stream line designs here and boil them down to the basics. We also bend on theme quite a bit in order to make the game fun and balanced for everyone involved. Otherwise Superman I would have had several more powers on his card and Man of Steel would have been something like 3 auto shields to keep any random street thug from ever hurting him with a pistol round.