4th>10th

[Jexik]

I've never liked redheads... or coats.

[Revdyer]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

My opinion: 10th = 4th no reason in my book to attempt to prove one better than the other. Its Ginger or Marryanne.

Then there are those who prefer the Professor.

[RoninValentina]

So its safe to say then the reasons being argued here for the subpar nature of the 10th is simply a cost/benefit ratio problem. The 4th Mass can do the same thing better and with more figures, or Stingers can screen themselves more easily for less. If that's the case, what is it going to take to make the 10th more [competitively] playable? Not necessarily what new unit or ability would have to be released later, but what sort of powers or combinations would the 10th find ideal in boosting their effectiveness?

[Jexik]

Even though it's just the post above, I'll quote RV here because this thread has a lot going on. Also, I still think the 10th are good, just... 4th best, and in a melee heavy metagame (perhaps at the Nebraska Skirmish for example), maybe even higher.

Originally Posted by RoninValentina

So its safe to say then the reasons being argued here for the subpar nature of the 10th is simply a cost/benefit ratio problem. The 4th Mass can do the same thing better and with more figures, or Stingers can screen themselves more easily for less. If that's the case, what is it going to take to make the 10th more [competitively] playable? Not necessarily what new unit or ability would have to be released later, but what sort of powers or combinations would the 10th find ideal in boosting their effectiveness?

Larger starting zones perhaps?

I think the problem with most 10th+ whatever builds is that the sweet spot for them (and the 4th Mass) is at 4 squads. For the Romans or Deathreavers, it's probably at 3. So you really need more room.

Let's say you had a 31 hex starting zone (one 24-hex + 1 7-hex) for 600 points (purposely chosen).

4x Redcoats 300
3x Romans 450
Marcus 550
Me-Burq-Sa 600 (31 hexes)

What would I do for the 4th Mass?

Probably...

7x Mass 490
Sgt. Drake (RotV) 600 (29 hexes)

I'm not sure which is better, because I've never played either of those armies, but that might be all it takes. Glads/Blasts and Rats/Stingers probably get really scary under those parameters though.

Edit: let's see.

4x Gladiatrons 320
3x Blastatrons 500
Raelin 580
Marcu or Isamu+Otonashi 600 (30/31)

6x Stingers 360
3x Deathreavers 480
Kaemon Awa/Skahen/RaeRaeSotM 600 (31)

Pretty nasty.

[Ty the Awasome]

Oh, why did you have to start this argument again? It never ends!

Seriously, though, I think they're both great in different ways. The 4th, as stated, are superior in Valiant armies. The 10th offer the same style, plus some of their own, but have superior flexibility. And, as Jexik pointed out on the first page, the 4th can struggle against Q9. So, how about putting Q9 in your 10th army? And yes, you could put Q9 in a 4th army. But no one who's building a competitive 4th army will do that. It's not worth losing the extra defense.

So, to recap. 4th are the superior squad, 10th offer related abilities, while giving the option to use other units you wouldn't normally use. End of debate (I hope).

[Ranior]

I personally prefer the 4th Mass as well. However just judging by this thread, you can see how close the two units are. With an argument as heated as this one, it is quite obvious that these two units are very similar and both quite competitive. Overall though the 4th Mass is the one for me (although I really need to be getting more than 2 sets....)

Also it helps that Charos is my favorite unit......

[MI_Tiger]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Larger starting zones perhaps? Let's say you had a 31 hex starting zone (one 24-hex + 1 7-hex) for 600 points (purposely chosen).

4x Redcoats 300
3x Romans 450
Marcus 550
Me-Burq-Sa 600 (31 hexes)

What would I do for the 4th Mass?

You may be on to something there. I remember a tournament a few months ago where Haleon won handily with an army of 10th Foot, Sacred Band, and MDG. But that tourney had larger than normal point limits and starting zones (600 pts / 30 spaces if I recall correctly).

The larger starting zone allowed him to make full use of the cheap infantry screen and keep the Disciplined Army bonus for the Sacred Band.

So for large starting zones, 10th>4th (?)

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Originally Posted by MI_Tiger

You may be on to something there. I remember a tournament a few months ago where Haleon won handily with an army of 10th Foot, Sacred Band, and MDG. But that tourney had larger than normal point limits and starting zones (600 pts / 30 spaces if I recall correctly).

The larger starting zone allowed him to make full use of the cheap infantry screen and keep the Disciplined Army bonus for the Sacred Band.

So for large starting zones, 10th>4th (?)

I think this is certainly true for the 10th and Ashigaru. They need cheerleaders to help them compete with other ranged squads like the 4th, Stingers and Blasts.

These units can all act as their own cheerleaders in a sense. Stingers can increase their own attack at a risk of losing units, which becomes less of a consequence as their numbers grow. Pure valiant 4th has the benefit of extra defense, and Blastatrons can help themselves if it comes down to it by moving themselves adjacent to enemies for Homing Device bonuses.

[STEALTHRULER]

I wish I had that many squads of 10th and 4th. Anyway, I have been reading and everyone here brings an excellent point; however, I do have one thing do add in. The 4th are a much better ranged defense squad.

First of all, I'm not saying the 10th have a horrible defense, but with the valiant army def Bonus, they can have a huge advantage when in a castle, or high elevation of any sort as opposed to the redcoats.

When in melee cicumstances (not a melee game) The 10th fair better because of bayonet and melee defense, making them much more offensive. You can simply "attack" with more confidence.

5 points may not seem like a big trade-off, but those 2 squads of 10th you get may cost you from getting Isamu, everyone's favorite filler who has saved the day. You guys know what I mean.

You also have to look at it in a real life prespective as well. The figures are much like the real soldiers. In real life, the british outnumbered the Americans with 40,000 trained soldiers to 10,000, maybe less militiamen. We still won. It goes to show you, what seems what may be better isn't always true. I think the developers had this in mind when creating the figures. Just a thought that burst into my mind.

[Onacara]

Originally Posted by STEALTHRULER

I wish I had that many squads of 10th and 4th. Anyway, I have been reading and everyone here brings an excellent point; however, I do have one thing do add in. The 4th are a much better ranged defense squad.

First of all, I'm not saying the 10th have a horrible defense, but with the valiant army def Bonus, they can have a huge advantage when in a castle, or high elevation of any sort as opposed to the redcoats.

When in melee cicumstances (not a melee game) The 10th fair better because of bayonet and melee defense, making them much more offensive. You can simply "attack" with more confidence.

5 points may not seem like a big trade-off, but those 2 squads of 10th you get may cost you from getting Isamu, everyone's favorite filler who has saved the day. You guys know what I mean.

You also have to look at it in a real life prespective as well. The figures are much like the real soldiers. In real life, the british outnumbered the Americans with 40,000 trained soldiers to 10,000, maybe less militiamen. We still won. It goes to show you, what seems what may be better isn't always true. I think the developers had this in mind when creating the figures. Just a thought that burst into my mind.

You do know that we won because we didnt stand in straight lines and fight like the British did right? AND You also do know that you do not have to keep the 10th foot in a straight line in the game, right?

Also...if you are only using Ismau as filler than you aren't using him correctly..and he is not Valliant so you would not get the bonus for using him in a 4th Mass build.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by STEALTHRULER

In real life, the british outnumbered the Americans with 40,000 trained soldiers to 10,000, maybe less militiamen. We still won. It goes to show you, what seems what may be better isn't always true.

*chuckle* Well now you're just making stuff up

~Aldin, historically

[Jexik]

I thought we won the war because the French helped us out.