4th>10th

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by dok

At this point I think we pretty much agree although we are looking at it different ways.

I agree with the first of those statements. I think the second has exceptions. For instance, say you want to use Marcus, MBS, and Romansx2, in a 480 point tournament. 10thx3 is pretty money with that army, giving you a 475 point, 23 hex army with great synergy and OM management. Stingersx3, plus 50 points of filler, does not really sound as good. Neither does 4thx3 plus Marcu, for that matter.

I don't think that army is as good as the best Stinger or 4th Mass armies at that point range. 8x Stingers is pretty nasty at 480. You can do the same thing with the 4th Mass for 460 and still have Isamu added on to make it 470. That army is at least as good as the one you mention, in my opinion, and I probably wouldn't bring either because at 470 I'd fear facing this monster: Q9, KMA, Raelin, Laglor. I might go with this 455 pointer: 3x 4th Mass, 2x Knights, Sir Gilbert, (and Kyntela Gwyn for 475), or the ever-simple 5x Mass, Old Drake for 460.

My way of looking at it is: "What are the best armies I can come up with at this total? Are the 10th Regiment in any of these armies?"

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Jexik

My way of looking at it is: "What are the best armies I can come up with at this total?"

In other words, your title was a misstatement. You basically meant 4th>All

~Aldin, who supposes the glads would be reluctantly admitted into the equasion

[Onacara]

10th x5
Marcus
Dumutef


That was my army for The Fall Brawl and I won the whole thing.

On NHSD I played with 6 squads of 10th and went undefeated.

On both days I faced Nilfheim and Q9..(once both in the same game)

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Onacara

10th x5
Marcus
Dumutef


That was my army for The Fall Brawl and I won the whole thing.

On NHSD I played with 6 squads of 10th and went undefeated.

On both days I faced Nilfheim and Q9..(once both in the same game)

Stranger things have happened.

(Honestly though, grats on the wins. I'd like to read the battle reports).

Contrary to my joking signature, I don't actually think Redcoats are bad. They're just not quite as good as some other units. If there are 4 separate common ranged squads that are all quite viable, and a number of others that are very close, and then you toss in the armies with rats, Q9, uniques, Knights/Heavy Gruts, dragons and so on, that tells me this game is pretty balanced, even if Dünd doesn't have many trophies. There are a lot of different ways to win, and it'll come down to your play, the matchups, maps, and the dice more often than coming with the perfect army, because no such thing exists.

But, still...

4th>10th

[Matthias Maccabeus]

I think the bottom line is in a game where range dominates (you're all a bunch of girls btw ) 2 defense doesn't cut it. Valiant 4th Mass (which with the release of the redcoats is the only way you should play them, unless you have Gilbert for dispatch) is greater than any 10th army, no matter what else is in the army.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I don't think that army is as good as the best Stinger or 4th Mass armies at that point range. 8x Stingers is pretty nasty at 480.

Sure it is, but I was responding specifically to your contention that Stingers are a better component in a non-valiant army than 10th. I pointed out an army where it seems pretty clear that you'd rather plug in the redcoats than stingers.

Moreover, I'd feel pretty good on most maps rolling with that MDG+MBS+Romans+10th army against Stingersx8. I can match the stingers nearly figure for figure, and I'm attacking 4 or 5 times per order marker to the stingers' 3.

Originally Posted by Jexik

You can do the same thing with the 4th Mass for 460 and still have Isamu added on to make it 470. That army is at least as good as the one you mention, in my opinion,

Wow, really? You'd rather have Isamu or Marcu in your army, than have bayonet charge and melee defense for 12 figures? If you have that low an opinion of those special abilities than I can understand why you don't like the 10th...

Originally Posted by Jexik

and I probably wouldn't bring either because at 470 I'd fear facing this monster: Q9, KMA, Raelin, Laglor. I might go with this 455 pointer: 3x 4th Mass, 2x Knights, Sir Gilbert, (and Kyntela Gwyn for 475), or the ever-simple 5x Mass, Old Drake for 460.

My way of looking at it is: "What are the best armies I can come up with at this total? Are the 10th Regiment in any of these armies?"

I think Aldin's response pretty much sums my feelings up there. Although it's less "4th>all", and more "most armies suck". If you're arguing that, for instance, no MDG+soldiers army is ever going to be a top-notch tournament performer, then that's going to take a whole set of relatively solid 10th armies off the table.

Let me return to the other example I mentioned where I feel like the 10th makes a great ranged filler: Southwest Ninja's 3rd place army.

Major Q9
2x 4th Massachusetts Line
Krav Maga Agents
Raelin
Marcu

I've already argued that I think 10thx2 + Isamu is better than 4thx2 + Marcu. I'd add that you can't fit three squads of Stingers there.

(Now, you could fit 2 squads of stingers and a squad of rats, which I actually do think would be better. But if it were 510 in stead of 520, I don't see any ranged squad filler that would do better.)

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by dok

Let me return to the other example I mentioned where I feel like the 10th makes a great ranged filler: Southwest Ninja's 3rd place army.

Major Q9
2x 4th Massachusetts Line
Krav Maga Agents
Raelin
Marcu

I've already argued that I think 10thx2 + Isamu is better than 4thx2 + Marcu. I'd add that you can't fit three squads of Stingers there.

(Now, you could fit 2 squads of stingers and a squad of rats, which I actually do think would be better. But if it were 510 in stead of 520, I don't see any ranged squad filler that would do better.)

I would disagree with you, dok, only because I've talked to southwest ninja about this army and I happen to know that he used the 4th here as cleanup figures. That meant that, a lot of the time, they had the Valiant bonus when they were deployed. Plus, sending Marcu out early to grab a glyph and take some fire off of Raelin is very underrated IMO.

Now, if your battle plan called for using the two squads of soldiers in the early / mid game, I'd probably argue that the 10th is stronger.

[dok]

Originally Posted by killercactus

I would disagree with you, dok, only because I've talked to southwest ninja about this army and I happen to know that he used the 4th here as cleanup figures. That meant that, a lot of the time, they had the Valiant bonus when they were deployed.

Very interesting. How did he convince his opponent to kill the third Krav Maga Agent? If I were facing this army, and two full squads of 4th Mass were still waiting in the start zone, I would be happy to let SW Ninja fire away with that last KMA until at least 6 of the Minutemen were dead.

Originally Posted by killercactus

Plus, sending Marcu out early to grab a glyph and take some fire off of Raelin is very underrated IMO.

Agreed on Marcu - nothing against him at all.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by dok

Sure it is, but I was responding specifically to your contention that Stingers are a better component in a non-valiant army than 10th. I pointed out an army where it seems pretty clear that you'd rather plug in the redcoats than stingers.

Moreover, I'd feel pretty good on most maps rolling with that MDG+MBS+Romans+10th army against Stingersx8. I can match the stingers nearly figure for figure, and I'm attacking 4 or 5 times per order marker to the stingers' 3.

The component argument is mostly thinking about the sort of Nilfheim/Q9/Rats/Raelin combos with Redcoats that Aldin was suggesting. I'd generally take Stingers in those.

Yeah, that particular matchup is probably pretty even. But again, I'd feel better with the ton of Stingers v. Q9 or Nilfheim than I would with the Redcoats/Romans army. Trons and 4th mass would be tough for both.

Originally Posted by dok

Wow, really? You'd rather have Isamu or Marcu in your army, than have bayonet charge and melee defense for 12 figures? If you have that low an opinion of those special abilities than I can understand why you don't like the 10th...

I'm really not all that sold on Bayonet Charge. It has its uses, but often you're better off firing from height at max range against a lot of different armies, even the melee ones. Staying at 6 range against Knights > getting hit with 'extra' defense up close. Again, that army's potential struggles with Q9 are what would get me to second guess it and play one of the pure valiant ones I mentioned later in the paragraph. I usually come up with dozens of armies before a tournament, and the 10th Reg. rarely make the cut, but I do consider them.

(Krav are a potentially good reason to play 10th/romans/Marcus though-these are the kinds of things I'm looking for; aside from all-melee, what are the common competitive matchups that you'd generally prefer a 10th/x army to a strong Valiant one?)

Originally Posted by dok

I think Aldin's response pretty much sums my feelings up there. Although it's less "4th>all", and more "most armies suck". If you're arguing that, for instance, no MDG+soldiers army is ever going to be a top-notch tournament performer, then that's going to take a whole set of relatively solid 10th armies off the table.

I'm not arguing that it'll never happen. Marcus and 10th have done well in tournaments. 2x 4th, 2x Romans, MBS, and Marcus was one of the dominant 400 (390) point armies back in the day in Dallas, and is probably made better by just swapping to the 10th. But really, I think that is a 2nd tier army these days. I wouldn't necessarily choose a Marcus army myself, or be as worried about playing against one in a tournament.

Originally Posted by dok

Let me return to the other example I mentioned where I feel like the 10th makes a great ranged filler: Southwest Ninja's 3rd place army.

Major Q9
2x 4th Massachusetts Line
Krav Maga Agents
Raelin
Marcu

I've already argued that I think 10thx2 + Isamu is better than 4thx2 + Marcu. I'd add that you can't fit three squads of Stingers there.

(Now, you could fit 2 squads of stingers and a squad of rats, which I actually do think would be better. But if it were 510 in stead of 520, I don't see any ranged squad filler that would do better.)

Yeah, it may have been better, but he still chose the 4th Mass for some reason. I doubt it would have made that much of a difference in the game he lost against spider_poison, because charging at Gladiatrons seems like a silly idea, and Isamu would probably have been worse than Marcu too, again because of the Gladiatrons.

Even in the situations where it seems like a clear favorite for the 10th, I think the best you can say is, "well, they're about the same."

Does 4th>=10th bother everyone less?

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by dok

Very interesting. How did he convince his opponent to kill the third Krav Maga Agent? If I were facing this army, and two full squads of 4th Mass were still waiting in the start zone, I would be happy to let SW Ninja fire away with that last KMA until at least 6 of the Minutemen were dead.

That's a good question. I don't know the exact answer, but my hunch is that most opponents were content to kill it in order to get the 100 points off the board. They didn't use partial scoring, and the time limit was pretty short (50 minutes), so a lot of players were concerned with getting all of the points they could. Also, although I'm with you on letting the last Agent fire, there's a sort of urgency that surrounds the KMA in my experience. People want to kill them when they have the chance, because Stealth Dodge is so powerful.

[spider_poison]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Does 4th>=10th bother everyone less?

It bothers me more

I pretty much agree with what you've said here, and I have yet to find a point total where some Redcoat army seems really, really good.

IMO, it's really hard to use Rats with 10th because of starting zone limits. For all practical purposes, I think you need at least 3 squads of Redcoats. Again, for all practical purposes, you'll need at least 2 squads of Rats. Marcus works well with Redcoats, so let's use him too. Raelin's nice, so throw her in there as well. All of a sudden, you have this:

3X Redcoats 225
2X Rats 305
Raelin 385
Marcus 485

All of a sudden, you're at 485 and don't have many attacking figures. It just becomes too diluted. If you get rid of the Rats, you can do something like this:

4X Redcoats 300
Raelin 380
Marcus 480
Romans 530 (22 spaces)

This army certainly isn't bad, but is it really any better than pure Mass in most matchups? The Romans are nice because you can go to glyphs and whatnot while you set up Marcus, but turns doing that take away from the limited time you have to set up ranged troops. Let's drop Marcus and the Romans then.

4X Redcoats 300
Raelin 380

The remaining points can be used for one of the solid heroes that can't be used with 4th Mass, such as Kaemon Awa. But is this really any better than a 4th Mass army? Not really. In my mind, the Redcoats can do lots of cute things, but they don't do anything all that well. And as Jexik said, if you're going to treat the Redcoats as a sort of filler or screen, you're usually better off with Stingers anyway.

[Grungebob]

My opinion: 10th = 4th no reason in my book to attempt to prove one better than the other. Its Ginger or Marryanne.