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  #49  
Old December 22nd, 2009, 01:59 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

Count me among those who think the game is far more interesting (and balanced) with glyphs then without. Well placed glyphs really reward mobility and serve as a disincentive for simply camping out on high ground. I think the right mix of glyphs go a long way to help balance the range versus melee and hero versus squad inequities.
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  #50  
Old December 22nd, 2009, 03:22 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

Of the two tournaments I've been to, one had glyphs and the other didn't. I greatly enjoyed both formats. Without glyphs it feels a bit more even, but with glyphs I enjoy the challenge of trying to pry it from their control.

I hope the Treasure glyphs change some of the squadscape, but I'm unsure about how many Treasure glyphs on a map it would take before that really shift really happens. If there are only 2 treasures on a map (seems to be the norm for glyphs) then I don't think it will change squadscape; having a hero with +1 attack or defense doesn't seem all that much more useful than without when fighting squads. If the treasures got really crazy and allowed say for an extra attack, then yes I could see heroes becoming powerful, but simply replacing the glyphs with treasures doesn't seem like a huge change to me.

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  #51  
Old December 22nd, 2009, 03:53 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

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Originally Posted by clancampbell View Post
Great thoughts kolakoski!

I, for one, don't see too much of a meta game shift. I really don't see alot of tournys use glyphs, of the 19 I've been too only 1 used them. Perhaps this may change with this new set of glyphs. However, my experience with glyphs was game changing, in a bad way as I could directly relate my loss to my oppenents control of a certain glyph. While these new glyphs have a different approach, I'm still sceptical.
Summoning tornak into a hoarde of gladiatrons...probably one of the worser things that could have happend to you that match.

I agree that glyphs aren't great. They can help lend balance to a map, but given some armies they do the opposite. I know at the same tournament Clancambell mentioned I brought the AE because I knew that lodin and unique attack would be on a lot of maps. I can safely say I won two matches because of glyphs and glyphs alone.
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  #52  
Old December 22nd, 2009, 09:13 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

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Originally Posted by Einar's puppy View Post
I agree that glyphs aren't great. They can help lend balance to a map, but given some armies they do the opposite. I know at the same tournament Clancambell mentioned I brought the AE because I knew that lodin and unique attack would be on a lot of maps. I can safely say I won two matches because of glyphs and glyphs alone.
You studied the maps. You noted the maps contained glyphs. You figured out what glyphs would probably be on the maps. You shaped your army around those findings. Everyone should be doing this, and you deserved to win those matches.


Is there are chance we're in a new metagame era yet or not? Raelin and Rats still rule the rankings, but the resurgence of Heavies at GenCon and the rapid reprints and releases have had some effect on things I think. I wonder if D&D will have any further effects.
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  #53  
Old December 22nd, 2009, 10:07 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

I think it's largely dependent on the map selection. Turret Rocks, for example, just wouldn't be the same without the glyph. A well designed map that includes glyphs should give thought to where those glyphs are and what having those glyphs in play does to the map.

I do think there are certain glyphs that are unbalanced when placed randomly. I'm not a huge fan of the attack glyphs or defense glyphs on any map that isn't specifically designed for them. I think they have the biggest swing effect on gameplay and can be unbalancing on certain maps. (That, and I was on the receiving end of EP's juiced AE at said tourney - damn glyph.)

The item glyphs I think have some good potential. I love that they offer a unit-specific boost instead of a global effect and that they can be carried. I think that opens a fascinating new dynamic in terms of gameplay. I also don't think anyone would begrudge a hero-boost. Will it constitute a shift in the metagame? Dunno - I think it's up to the mapmakers at this point. I'm interested to see whether they'll integrate well with the existing maps; I have my doubts but haven't done any testing yet. If we can get some good, solid tourney maps that use the treasure glyphs in an interesting an fun way, then I think we'll see a bit of a shift, but it's obviously a bit early to prognosticate.
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  #54  
Old February 26th, 2010, 10:41 AM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

The Warriors of the Ghostlight Fen pack alone contains 2 units that will, in my opinion, impact the metagame significantly.

1. Phantom Knights. Major impact. Counter to ranged squads and glyph grabber extrordinaire.

2. Hydra. So many uses, so few points. Offensive juggernaut all by itself and 6 defense. Wow!

Phantom Knights/Raelin replaces Deathreavers/Raelin as favored basis of Valhalla Society builds. Under certain circumstances, Phantom Knights/Deathreavers/Raelin could make an appearance. Phantom Knights/Raelin/Hydra even more so.

In any event, the monolithic, homogeneous squadscape advocates face their greatest challenge.

P.S.: As much as I like the GIE and the Wyvern, and others fear Kurrock and company, I don't see them as having a significant impact on the metagame. Looking forward to the Hero pack!
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  #55  
Old March 1st, 2010, 11:00 AM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I think we've already seen a pretty cool revolution this last year with the resurgence of melee and Braxas. The upcoming D&D waves have several units that I'm sure will make their way into tournament builds, and a few that make excellent counter-drafts to other popular stuff from the past.

As for the maps and glyphs. I haven't talked too much with Ry and GB about it yet, but they're usually the ones handling the events at GenCon, and I'll be extremely surprised if the main event doesn't allow all things Valhalla (including MS 3 and the D&D waves).

I'm thinking of running a tourney or two before then, and one thing I'm looking at is to have a couple Dungeon maps with symbol-side up Treasure glyphs only, a couple maps with random normal glyphs ssu, and a map or two with fixed glyphs known before hand. Toss in a small drafting element, and people will have to play to their map and their opponent, instead of just making the best double blind army.

It's going to be an interesting year for tournaments and organized events, that's for sure. I'm really looking forward to it.
What constitutes the best double blind army in the current metagame (500 points)?
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  #56  
Old March 1st, 2010, 12:03 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

Well, it's a moving target, right? No one army can ever be completely dominant, because no army is favored against all opposing armies.

I can't imagine a "metagame endgame" having fewer than three major builds playing prominently. An obvious possible endgame would be one 4th Mass build, one Heavy Grut build, and one rats&range build. 4th beat gruts beat ratpodge beat 4th. I don't think there's a possible army that's favored against all three.

There's plenty of armies out there that beat one of those most of the time, though, so it's extremely unlikely that things would ever get that stale. I guess the interesting theoryscape question is: can you construct a trio of armies at a given point level such that no army would be favored in general against two of them?
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  #57  
Old March 1st, 2010, 12:48 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Well, it's a moving target, right? No one army can ever be completely dominant, because no army is favored against all opposing armies.

I can't imagine a "metagame endgame" having fewer than three major builds playing prominently. An obvious possible endgame would be one 4th Mass build, one Heavy Grut build, and one rats&range build. 4th beat gruts beat ratpodge beat 4th. I don't think there's a possible army that's favored against all three.

There's plenty of armies out there that beat one of those most of the time, though, so it's extremely unlikely that things would ever get that stale. I guess the interesting theoryscape question is: can you construct a trio of armies at a given point level such that no army would be favored in general against two of them?
With the counterdraft opportunities available from D1 and before, I think that a metagame shift will be in choosing a few figures that close some of the weaknesses in current builds to make a new hybrid build. We've seen this to a certain extent in suicide 4th squads. I could easily see a Heavy Grut build that has some PK's or perhaps a Vydar pod that uses WOA instead of deathreavers. One of the interesting things is that the hybrid army becomes weaker against itself, but stronger against its weaker matchups.
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  #58  
Old March 1st, 2010, 12:56 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich10 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Well, it's a moving target, right? No one army can ever be completely dominant, because no army is favored against all opposing armies.

I can't imagine a "metagame endgame" having fewer than three major builds playing prominently. An obvious possible endgame would be one 4th Mass build, one Heavy Grut build, and one rats&range build. 4th beat gruts beat ratpodge beat 4th. I don't think there's a possible army that's favored against all three.

There's plenty of armies out there that beat one of those most of the time, though, so it's extremely unlikely that things would ever get that stale. I guess the interesting theoryscape question is: can you construct a trio of armies at a given point level such that no army would be favored in general against two of them?
With the counterdraft opportunities available from D1 and before, I think that a metagame shift will be in choosing a few figures that close some of the weaknesses in current builds to make a new hybrid build. We've seen this to a certain extent in suicide 4th squads. I could easily see a Heavy Grut build that has some PK's or perhaps a Vydar pod that uses WOA instead of deathreavers. One of the interesting things is that the hybrid army becomes weaker against itself, but stronger against its weaker matchups.
Right, and that's what makes building an army like that such a challenge, in terms of the theoryscape challenge I just presented. You're starting out with a loss against the pseudo-mirror army, so unless you can win both of the other matchups a majority of the time, you're just spinning your wheels.

That said, if you can simply balance out those matchups, you've accomplished something meaningful. I think this does demonstrate how hard it is to nail down the metagame even with a group of builds.
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  #59  
Old March 1st, 2010, 01:46 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Right, and that's what makes building an army like that such a challenge, in terms of the theoryscape challenge I just presented. You're starting out with a loss against the pseudo-mirror army, so unless you can win both of the other matchups a majority of the time, you're just spinning your wheels.

That said, if you can simply balance out those matchups, you've accomplished something meaningful. I think this does demonstrate how hard it is to nail down the metagame even with a group of builds.
This is kind of how K-boom decided to play the A+ Junk army back in Jan 2008.

He thought, "what if I just play all of the good units, even though they don't really make that much sense together?" It was a lot like the popular Q9 build, only with Mass instead of Laglor/Krav.

For 550, he played:

Major Q9 180
3x 4th Mass 390
Raelin 470
2x Deathreavers 550

In our playtesting, he crushed everything I threw at him. I was 0-8 over a few days of games on the maps for Wytefang's tourney.

I went 2-1 against him in our playtesting when I switched to Nilfheim, Cyp, Sonya, 3x Deathreavers, Marro Warriors. It was a very similar kind of army, just with more of my sense of style at the time.

But what he actually lost to the day of the tourney was what you'd probably call his pseudo-mirror: a standard Mattser Vydar range pod... + 2x Rats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #60  
Old March 1st, 2010, 01:52 PM
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Re: Metagame Evolution

I'm very interested to see how all the DnD stuff will play out in the meta-game. A lot of stuff counters some of the better tournament builds in theory, but how it plays out could be totally different.

I know Zelrig was a big scare for awhile but did he change the meta-game? I think there's arguements for both sides.

Same with the repulsors. Did they change the meta-game? Will Lonewolf think twice about using trons this year at Gen Con because of them? Will the FEs make Matthias think twice about bringing knights, orcs, or dwarves to Gen Con? Will the Greenscales dominate the field? I'm very interested to see how this all plays out.

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