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  #25  
Old November 21st, 2012, 12:20 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Let's remember that we're not talking about poor, unloved common squads here. We're talking about poor, unloved melee figures without a special attack. Those figures are much more disadvantaged by the dynamics of the game, although modern tournament maps have leveled the playing field significantly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
FLEDGLING COUNTER STIKE
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, if any excess shields are rolled the attacking figure receives one unblockable hit.

Isn't it just a weaker version of Counter Strike? Do you consider Counter Strike overpowered against squads? I'm honestly confused.
I agree that it's probably not quite as overpowered as the NO votes in the SoV suggested, but there are some things going on here that set the GW apart from other counterstrikers.

Foremostamong them is the combination of 4 defense and common status. The only common figures in the game with counterstrike are the Tagawa Samurai Archers, and they have 3 defense (and a rather weak attack against the typically tougher melee figures). All the unique squads are inherently fragile because one kill reduces their attacking power by a third. With the GWs, you can keep forcing your opponent to go through 4 defense (or 5, or 6, or 7, depending on height/Raelin).

Of course, there's also flying, which means they will have height advantage quite often. Of course as a melee figure they will often have to leave height to engage a ranged opponent, but since it's counterstrike we're worried about, it's really only the melee/melee matchup that matters. And in that case, the flying GWs will often reach the high ground first.

So, they are distinct from the existing counterstriking figures. The question is how to tone it back without overdoing it. The "max 1 wound" version above was actually tested by the SoV, and found to not make much of a difference. (Which is not surprising... how often do you counterstrike for 2 wounds, anyway?) On the flip side, making it "1 wound for each shield after the first" overdoes it in the other direction (for the same reason... again, 2 extra shields is rare). So the optimum is probably somewhere in the middle.

As I said in the OP, as long as they're not more broken against melee than Raelin+WoA, I'm not convinced it's a critical problem, but it is something that needs to be considered.

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Finally, there's the 4th Mass factor. It sucks, but this simply has to be considered when you design these guys. They are an awfully nice filler for use in a 4th Mass build due to their valiant personality. You can even toss in Raelin, who benefits the GWs disproportionately, and basically dare your opponent to kill Raelin first, thereby giving the valiant defense bonus to the 4th. Armies that have to be considered include things like 4thx5+GWx4 @ 490 and 4thx5+Raelin+GWx3 @ 535 and 4thx4+Raelin+GWx6 @ 570.

Obviously, all of those are awesome armies. That's not really the point, because anything with 16+ Minutemen is an awesome army. That's not news. The question is whether those are better than the best 4th builds at those point totals... things like 4thx6+Sam Brown @ 480, 4thx5 + Nilfheim @ 535, and 4thx5 + Charos @ 560. If they are (not just head to head, but against a range of opposing armies) then that's an issue.

(Part of the reason I like pricing the GW at 35 instead of 30 is it cuts down considerably on the number of 4th Mass builds we have to worry about. Because as good as the GWs will be with the 4th, you will generally prefer 4 Minutemen to 2 wyrmlings if you have the space.)
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  #26  
Old November 21st, 2012, 12:28 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Have you guys considered knocking GW's attack down to 2? Maybe 2 attack and 4 defense could help to even it out? Or go with 3 attack and 3 defense?

EDIT: This is me just thinking outloud... how about 2/3 attack, and 5 base defense, but with the counterstrike that someone mentioned earlier in this thread (sorry I can't give that person credit right now, I gotta go to work soon!) where in order to activate CS, the GW must roll 2 more shields than the attacker does skulls. The only problem I could see with 5 defense is that it may be too hard to kill GW...

Last edited by Unhinged Manchild; November 21st, 2012 at 12:42 PM.
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  #27  
Old November 21st, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I don't think lowering the attack really addresses the concerns that got the original GW a "No" from the SoV. What's really needed is a tweak to Fledgling counterstrike to create something not as deadly as it was.

Obviously lowering defense could work, but we don't want to make these guys useless. Charos has the highest defense among the dragons. It'd be strange if the corresponding Wyrmling had less defense than the others.
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  #28  
Old November 21st, 2012, 12:45 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Great points dok, but as you said in the OP, there are dials that can be adjusted, Move and Defense being the obvious ones in this case. A 4 Move with Flying seems thematic, considering Charos is one of the slower dragons. A 3 Defense would also make them about as dangerous as the Tagawa Archers.
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  #29  
Old November 21st, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

4 move seems like a good change to make. It would make getting height just a bit harder.
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  #30  
Old November 21st, 2012, 02:18 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
After rolling defense dice, if excess shields are rolled, roll the 20-sided die. Add one to your roll for each shield rolled in the defense roll. If you roll an 18 or higher, inflict one wound on the attack figure.

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  #31  
Old November 21st, 2012, 03:02 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

That looks like a good starting point. I'd make it even simpler and go away with the adding to the roll:

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
After rolling defense dice, if excess shields are rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher, inflict one wound on the attacking figure.

The die roll can be tweaked in playtesting.
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  #32  
Old November 21st, 2012, 08:03 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

My last thought on the GW before I set it down was to make it an uncommon hero instead of common, and increase the points. My thought process was that Charos is the tank of the dragons, so the GW should be the tank of the wyrmlings instead of a melee screen. Then the power of Counterstrike isn't a huge deal, and now the wyrmlings have an OM sink to use with survivability.

Nobody likes that though - everyone was dead set on them being a common hero for some reason I can't figure out.

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  #33  
Old November 21st, 2012, 08:52 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I was thinking that making them uncommon could be a good route too... but I figured it wouldn't fly with most people.

Also, the idea of rolling D20 to determine if CS can inflict a wound could be a nice idea.

Something like:
If GW rolls excess shields, roll D20, if you get 15 or higher, inflict one wound on the defending figure. Each excess shield would add (some amount, maybe 2 or 3) to your D20 roll. So in reality, base CS would actually inflict a wound on a 13 or higher, since you need one more shield to the attacker's skulls for it to even activate.

I'm not a rules lawyer, and clearly I couldn't quite word this power the best way possible... I'm just trying to give you guys ideas
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  #34  
Old November 21st, 2012, 08:54 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I like a true Wyrmling.
Defense 4 is too strong, the obvious solution is to decrease to defense 3 ?
It's high enough for a common flying figure.

I propose:
Move 5
Attack 3
Defense 3
30 points
Valiant

(If you prefer a stronger version, increase to attack 4 and 35 points.)
I like to keep it simple, and a true weaker version of Charos, without a D20.

FLEDGLING COUNTER STRIKE
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, if any excess shields are rolled the attacking figure receives one unblockable hit.

Quote:
Probability to inflict a wound with FLEDGLING COUNTER STRIKE with 3 defense dice.
Against attack with 1 die: 48%
Againts attack with 2 dice: 32%
Against attack with 3 dice: 20%

A Wyrmling can easily get height advantage by flying.
Probability to inflict a wound with FLEDGLING COUNTER STRIKE with 4 defense dice.
Against attack with 1 die: 61%
Againts attack with 2 dice: 43%
Against attack with 3 dice: 30%

With a better bonus (Raelin or height+Gerda).
Probability to inflict a wound with FLEDGLING COUNTER STRIKE with 5 defense dice.
Against attack with 1 die: 70%
Againts attack with 2 dice: 54%
Against attack with 3 dice: 40%
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  #35  
Old November 21st, 2012, 09:17 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

My idea would be that the counter strike only woks against small (maybe medium) figures. My reasoning is that in Charos's bio the way he counter strikes is with his wings and a small wyrmling with small wings wouldn't be able to counter strike a larger figure.

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  #36  
Old November 22nd, 2012, 09:26 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Interesting thread. I'd love to see a Green Wyrmling.

Here's my idea.

Fledging Counterstrike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, if no blanks are rolled, then any excess shields that are rolled count as unblockable hits on the attacker.

With 4D defence there is a 48% chance that no blanks are rolled. With 5D this drops to 40%. Though there is still a risk to melee attackers, it is reduced. As well, adding Raelin actually reduces the chance counterstrike occurs.

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