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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.

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  #121  
Old July 5th, 2013, 11:51 AM
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Re: The Book of Sage

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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Oh man! We thought that your turn started after revealing the order marker. Looks like Sage doesn't work that way.
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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
I wonder if changing that would help bring her down to normal levels. She's always felt fine how I've played her.
It would really help, yeah. That or restricting it to once per round would be my suggestion for how to fix it.

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  #122  
Old July 5th, 2013, 11:52 AM
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Re: The Book of Sage

Right Q, if she has an OM on her card you can use tactician before revealing an OM. Same with Rogers.

One thing I'm wondering as far as how overpowered Sage is supposed to be. Is that based on her in a pod with the current overpowered offenders like Jocasta? Because if Sage isn't being "protected" so to speak by these support units, she only has 5 defense and 4 lives and not to difficult to kill.

So I guess what I'm trying to figure out about how broken she is, is it just her with any decent army makeup, or is it her with the pod type support units? Because if it's the latter, then wouldn't that make it less about her and more about the other units that are the bigger concern?

I've played her, but not in a pod setup with the few OP offenders, and she wasn't all crazy powerful when I used her. So my concern is in that whether or not she is getting all this "concern" because she's too good no matter what, or that she's too good when paired with only a select few figures?

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  #123  
Old July 5th, 2013, 11:56 AM
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Re: The Book of Sage

I say it may be a mix of both, Hahma. But which one is more dominant is the question, though.
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  #124  
Old July 5th, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

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Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
I say it may be a mix of both, Hahma. But which one is more dominant is the question, though.
to this. Also, the support units to keep her alive are a huge boost, but with as many as there are now, it's going to be hard to rein them in. Jocasta, Bizarro, Valkyrie, Mastermind and the Beat Cops are all great at keeping key figures alive. Without these, Sage is a risk and can be assassinated, but again, unlike other OM controllers, she doesn't require the OMs to be on her card. So, while killing her removes her power from the game, if you are careful, it won't cost you a bunch of lost turns like it would with Baron Zemo or Xavier.

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moon rattles like a fragment of angry candy"
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  #125  
Old July 5th, 2013, 12:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

So do opponents make her a priority to take out, or is she so powerful that an opponent has no control of how they can play? I realize that the OM flex she and Rogers give can allow their armies to try to block attacks against them, but there are other armies that have OM flex to an extent or bonding, or squad/hero bonding or whatever that shouldn't make them totally useless.

Now we have Moon Knight that can get put on his card and drop down in Sage's SZ or wherever and do some damage. Hawkeye II can carry a long ranged unit like Merlyn to height and the Merlyn still gets to move closer to Sage if need be to attack. Or Hawkeye II can carry a figure with a leap, or superspeed to get to Sage.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are units that can also add flexibility to an opponent's army to help against Sage, and a figure like Moon Knight or Hawkeye II aren't expensive and don't mess up an army build.

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  #126  
Old July 5th, 2013, 12:10 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
I say it may be a mix of both, Hahma. But which one is more dominant is the question, though.
to this. Also, the support units to keep her alive are a huge boost, but with as many as there are now, it's going to be hard to rein them in. Jocasta, Bizarro, Valkyrie, Mastermind and the Beat Cops are all great at keeping key figures alive. Without these, Sage is a risk and can be assassinated, but again, unlike other OM controllers, she doesn't require the OMs to be on her card. So, while killing her removes her power from the game, if you are careful, it won't cost you a bunch of lost turns like it would with Baron Zemo or Xavier.
Well she and Rogers do have to have at least one OM on their card at the beginning of their turn. Sure it doesn't have to be revealed on their card, but it still has to be there at the beginning of your turn.

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  #127  
Old July 5th, 2013, 12:12 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

Sure, that's a valid strategy and one that should always be attempted when playing against Sage, but if you plop her down in the very back of the SZ it's not always easy to reach her, not when Sage's team is doing their best to prevent you from attacking Sage. And again, tossing in a squad of Beat Cops or Bizarro or Mastermind can negate or at least delay that strategy.

EDIT: It also means your opponent is spending their first 2 or 3 rounds trying to take down a 190 point figure. Even if they succeed, if they lose 200+ points in doing so, they're still coming out behind.

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  #128  
Old July 5th, 2013, 12:14 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
I say it may be a mix of both, Hahma. But which one is more dominant is the question, though.
to this. Also, the support units to keep her alive are a huge boost, but with as many as there are now, it's going to be hard to rein them in. Jocasta, Bizarro, Valkyrie, Mastermind and the Beat Cops are all great at keeping key figures alive. Without these, Sage is a risk and can be assassinated, but again, unlike other OM controllers, she doesn't require the OMs to be on her card. So, while killing her removes her power from the game, if you are careful, it won't cost you a bunch of lost turns like it would with Baron Zemo or Xavier.
Well she and Rogers do have to have at least one OM on their card at the beginning of their turn. Sure it doesn't have to be revealed on their card, but it still has to be there at the beginning of your turn.
Yeah, but losing an 'X' is no big deal to most teams, and it's much better than losing 3 or 4 like you will if Xavier or Zemo goes down at the start of the round.

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  #129  
Old July 5th, 2013, 12:35 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

Thanks for the detailed analysis, TB! I further look forward to you showing some of these issues on the battlefield with your upcoming playtests, which I'm sure will help us wrap our heads around them even further.

One of the big bummers about the Sage/Brainiac/1 other Legionnaire combo is that it just kills the best counter to figures like Jocasta and Puppet Master, i.e. auto wounding powers relying on the D20. I think one of the things we want to strive to do is to make it very difficult, competitively, to block all offensive avenues of your opponent for a reasonable cost. Sage + Brainiac + Legionnaire gives you a lowcost way to cripple D20 auto wounding powers, while boosting your own. If you can throw in someone to provide protection against normal/special attacks as well (such as Jocasta), that becomes a pretty tough bubble to burst.

So, yeah, I'm starting to get it here. One of the big things with Sage, I think, is just bang for your buck. At her cost, to have the most OM flexibility in the game is a big deal.

There are tons of small tweaks that could be done to hopefully help things out, though. One possibility, that might fit Commander Rogers well, is to require him to have a revealed Order Marker on his card to be able to do the rearranging. It'd echo Captain America nicely, and would suit Rogers' leadership style, while pretty much requiring you to use your first turn on him in order to use the exploit for the rest of the round.

Sage will likely require a slightly heavier hand than that, though ....

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  #130  
Old July 5th, 2013, 01:57 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

back in the debate of her going up to 190 I suggested that I would still gladly take her if she were 230-240 points.

I used her last season with Brainiac 5, Cosmic Boy, Graviton and some other d20 benefitting heroes.

Graviton made sure no one would be able to fly to Sage and kill her. Even with the addition of Moon Knight (who is AWESOME btw) it would have only slowed my army down a little to bring brainiac 5 and Sage along with the others (using Graviton to throw my figs each turn).

I think forcing her (and Commander Rogers now) to have a revealed OM on their card in order to use Master Tactician would significantly reduce their power but still make them playable.
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  #131  
Old July 5th, 2013, 02:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

Interesting question: is it exclusively Brainiac 5's interaction with her that makes her so problematic? Or can she still have overpowered armies without Brainiac 5 and another Legionnaire in the picture?

Seems like a very important question to answer in order to figure out how to alter her if we see the necessary test results to show she should be revisited.

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  #132  
Old July 5th, 2013, 02:11 PM
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Re: The Book of Sage

Certainly some things to consider here. Only thing that may result in a change like that is that tests for other units that were tested with Rogers or Sage in their armies would be skewed. Army test wins with them in the tested unit's army could have been losses with these changes and those units cost are paritally based on those tests. Of course, there wouldn't have been a ton of Rogers in tests since he was just released, but I know I used him a bit in initial playtests I did.

No big deal though, better to change these overpowered cards than worry about little things.

One concern I have about the competetive influence is that certain units are going to be priced based on being pigeon holed in certain specific competetive builds that include a handful of the 500 units. Meaning that while certain units will be balanced in those specifice builds for competetive play, they will be over priced for non-competetive play, even if they are still being played in synergized and thematic armies as meant to be, but not including the few specific support units that will be a staple in competetive play.

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