The Book of Martian Manhunter (Justice League)

[Arkham]

Alright, addressing some things...

1. Look at slightly lowering some of his stats

The only lowering of stats that is possible, without compromising his actual power level(which I feel was the biggest thing lacking in his first design), would be to lower his Move from 8 to 7. It's not a huge difference, but I wouldn't possibly think lowering his Life, Attack, Range, or Defense any more would be doing him any justice. He's supposed to be a power hitting tank of a character, on the level right below Superman. I'd prefer to keep him along those lines. So lowering his Move from 8 to 7 will be a nice way to shave off 10 points, as mentioned before in the JL Design Thread.

2. Put a range restriction on his double turns (maybe this restriction is what should be variable, based on the number of markers, forcing him further and further into the action?)

Absolutely a change we're making. I think the range should be 8 spaces(double his range and control denial for simplicity). This gives him plenty of range to pick from, but forces him to stay within the battle lines, making him use turns and take more hits. That will already cut about 10 points from how potent he is.

3. Consider requiring him to burn a marker for the mind control denial, rather than making it passive (this could bring more of the strategic decision making back in, and give him another use for the markers than double turns).

I'm OK with this idea, but I don't like it effecting Martian Manhunter as well. He should never be taken control of. So we'd have to work it in that he can't be taken control of, and if any teammate within 4 spaces of him gets taken control of, he can remove a marker to end their turn immediately. This change is maybe worth 5-10 points.

Honestly, I think a big problem is that the number of Justice League Markers is unrestricted, which could be far too powerful, the larger the game gets. I think a maximum number, a bit like the Avengers, would be better.

Absolutely not. I don't think putting a cap on these is necessary. Avengers get a static benefit, with static amounts of markers, and complete open synergy regardless of who is picked. That's great in its own right. The number of markers here, isn't making the JL system any better, it's just a different system, with its own unique benefit, as well as drawback.

Xx2 allows a shifting aura range, but a practical one.
I'm also wondering, looking at a few comments, if 8 move may be a bit much - 7 or 6 would probably be better. Is he really that much faster than Wonder Woman or Iron Man.

Math in terms of multiplication and division is avoided when making powers, so that wouldn't be an option. As far as his speed, he's shown he can go just as about as fast as Superman, effectively flying from city to city quickly saving lives within seconds-minutes. So he's supposed to be just 1 level below Superman with many of his stats, and that's where we've pretty much got him.

So here's what I'll propose if we want to reign him in a bit, perhaps 30 points worth:

LIFE = 7

MOVE = 7
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 7

POINTS = 400

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA
At the start of the game, place 1 white Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Hero you control with the class of Champion, Officer, Vigilante, or Warrior.

TELEPATHIC LEAGUE LINK
All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other. An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter, and if an opponent begins to take control of any other figure you control within 4 spaces of Martian Manhunter, you may remove one Justice League Marker from this card, and that figure's turn immediately ends. Once per round, after revealing a numbered Order Marker on this card and instead of taking a turn normally with Martian Manhunter, you may remove a Justice League Marker from this card and immediately choose up to two Unique Heroes you control within 8 spaces of Martian Manhunter to take a turn. Martian Manhunter may be one of the chosen heroes.

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

I say we test at 400, keeping it nice and even, with the added restrictions and slight lowering of his movement, hopefully we'll hit that mark.

[japes]

This is getting back to the level that I was against when pretty much most of his bonding powers are linked to the markers. I would prefer to put a static range restriction on the control denial phase and leave it without needing to burn a marker. Lets not jump to the extreme of making all the changes suggested all at once. Start with the move reduction and the ranged on the double activation (which was already discussed) and see if that's enough.

Also reducing his defense by one wouldn't be the end of the world...especially with Density Control and a ranged normal. He can leave engagement cleanly and not be attacked so having at least a chance if you can get a hit in on him a little more fun to play against. But that is only if the first changes aren't enough.

[IAmBatman]

I'm down with all of that. Wouldn't be shocked if he still comes in over 400, but those are probably good changes regardless.

Edit: With or without the change to the control denial. I'm fine with seeing us just try it with the range restriction and the -1 Move. I don't personally mind if he ends up 400-450.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm down with all of that. Wouldn't be shocked if he still comes in over 400, but those are probably good changes regardless.

Edit: With or without the change to the control denial. I'm fine with seeing us just try it with the range restriction and the -1 Move. I don't personally mind if he ends up 400-450.

I'd like to see him at 400, but 410-430 wouldn't be the worst thing.

As for the control denial being tied to markers or not, not a big deal either way.

Lowering defense I'm not a fan of. Martian Manhunter I died easily for me, too easy for a guy on the endurance level of Superman, and who can change his density, and can regenerate form only a hand.

[IAmBatman]

Agreed that 410-430 wouldn't be the biggest deal. I don't think the proposed changes are going to do that much to cut down his cost, but I think they're good changes to make anyway to make sure he doesn't feel too powerful. (I'm talking, specifically, about 7 Move and the range 8 restriction on the leadership)

It's sounding like he's at about the right place. I'd rather see his cost go up a bit than a bunch of other changes.

[Yodaking]

Yeah, I'm with Bats here. Only small changes are needed along with a points bump. I like what Sock just proposed and would like to see that be tested next, but at 430 points. I'm pretty sure that is the area where that design would fall, give or take 10 points. Test it at 430 and if I'm wrong then the tests will show that and we can lower him back down.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

So he's supposed to be just 1 level below Superman with many of his stats, and that's where we've pretty much got him.

So here's what I'll propose if we want to reign him in a bit, perhaps 30 points worth:

LIFE = 7

MOVE = 7
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 7

POINTS = 400

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA
At the start of the game, place 1 white Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Hero you control with the class of Champion, Officer, Vigilante, or Warrior.

TELEPATHIC LEAGUE LINK
All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other. An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter, and if an opponent begins to take control of or any other figure you control within 4 spaces of Martian Manhunter, you may remove one Justice League Marker from this card, and that figure's turn immediately ends. Once per round, after revealing a numbered Order Marker on this card and instead of taking a turn normally with Martian Manhunter, you may remove a Justice League Marker from this card and immediately choose up to two Unique Heroes you control within 8 spaces of Martian Manhunter to take a turn. Martian Manhunter may be one of the chosen heroes.

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

I say we test at 400, keeping it nice and even, with the added restrictions and slight lowering of his movement, hopefully we'll hit that mark.

I prefer we test with this change...or at a minimum maybe say something along the lines of "as long as there is at least 1 Justice League Marker on this card" for the "any other figure you control within 4 spaces of Martian Manhunter" control denial.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Lowering defense I'm not a fan of. Martian Manhunter I died easily for me, too easy for a guy on the endurance level of Superman, and who can change his density, and can regenerate form only a hand.

well version 1 had 6 life and 6 defense. This one is at 7 Life and 7 defense with both being bumped it is a larger jump.

Keep in mind, I mean for a reduction here only as a last resort if the other changes don't work...I just think the control denial should be more useful than having to burn the marker. I'm thinking of a JL vs Starro battle here where you would only get 2 or 3 markers in the 1600 point game and they would be burned in the first round trying to protect from starro and you never get to use his biggest cost driver...the double activation.

[japes]

For reference...

TELEPATHIC LEAGUE LINK
All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other. An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter. If there is at least one Justice League Marker on this card, an opponent may not take control of any other figure you control within 4 spaces of Martian Manhunter. Once per round, after revealing a numbered Order Marker on this card and instead of taking a turn normally with Martian Manhunter, you may remove a Justice League Marker from this card and immediately choose up to two Unique Heroes you control within 8 spaces of Martian Manhunter to take a turn. Martian Manhunter may be one of the chosen heroes.



or even further...
"All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other. " could even be tied to having at least one order marker on the card.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by japes

I'm thinking of a JL vs Starro battle here where you would only get 2 or 3 markers in the 1600 point game and they would be burned in the first round trying to protect from starro and you never get to use his biggest cost driver...the double activation.

Just a FYI, I had 6 markers in my last 1600 point game with me spending points on Robin & Green Arrow, had 4 markers in the first 1600 points game while spending 300 points on a squad. I kind of like the dilemma of having to decide what is more important to you, getting a double turn or giving up control of a hero to Starro but I've never played a game vs. Starro so maybe I would change my mind after a game.

[Arkham]

If we don't go with the marker burn aspect for the control denial, I'd prefer to just keep it simple and go with the static spaces. With the 8 range on his turns, and the move down to 7, I think those 2 are enough to bring him down 20 points from wherever he originally would have landed. I think 410 is doable, as Yoda's games had him projected at 430 originally. If that doesn't work, we'll go from there.

TELEPATHIC LEAGUE LINK
All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other. An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter or any other figure you control within 4 spaces of Martian Manhunter. Once per round, after revealing a numbered Order Marker on this card and instead of taking a turn normally with Martian Manhunter, you may remove a Justice League Marker from this card and immediately choose up to two Unique Heroes you control within 8 spaces of Martian Manhunter to take a turn. Martian Manhunter may be one of the chosen heroes.

I'd also like to see some tests done at 1,000 points, to make sure we aren't ending up with someone over costed for the standard competitive point value. He'll of course play better in higher point games, as do several people when you get at that point level, but I'd still like him to be a draftable option in 1,000 point games.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Absolutely not. I don't think putting a cap on these is necessary. Avengers get a static benefit, with static amounts of markers, and complete open synergy regardless of who is picked. That's great in its own right. The number of markers here, isn't making the JL system any better, it's just a different system, with its own unique benefit, as well as drawback.

I really do think this is necessary - otherwise, his power level will increase exponentially with game size, and in a large battle the Justice League would wipe the floor with most people, including the Avengers - I really think those armies should be more evenly matched (and actually think a classic JL team vs a classic Avengers team is a test that needs to happen). Also remember that not one figure in the whole game has an unlimited number of any kind of Marker (well, there's Absorbing Man, but that's capped by no one having a defence higher than 8 in C3G). How many markers is someone expected to print out? How many markers will be put on the card sheet? I know this is a minor point, but the other one is important, and it doesn't change how he works in most games - it just makes him that bit more workable.