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  #4549  
Old April 14th, 2021, 11:10 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That's really good advice. Now that I've had time to fully wrap my head around everything that Dok said, I'm thinking it might be good to lower the power of the unit as an adjustment. Instead of the worrisome (in theory?) No hitzones I'll try to go with something like...

STEALTHY 3
When an unengaged Wulfing Hunter is attacked with a normal or special attack, add 3 defense dice to the defending Wulfing Hunter.

Last edited by Shiftrex; April 15th, 2021 at 02:34 AM.
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  #4550  
Old April 15th, 2021, 01:07 PM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
That's really good advice. Now that I've had time to fully wrap my head around everything that Dok said, I'm thinking it might be good to lower the power of the unit as an adjustment. Instead of the worrisome (in theory?) No hitzones I'll try to go with something like...

STEALTHY 3
When an unengaged Wulfing Hunter is attacked with a normal or special attack, add 3 defense dice to the defending Wulfing Hunter.
Use Evasive 3 and copy its wording.
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  #4551  
Old April 15th, 2021, 02:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
That's really good advice. Now that I've had time to fully wrap my head around everything that Dok said, I'm thinking it might be good to lower the power of the unit as an adjustment. Instead of the worrisome (in theory?) No hitzones I'll try to go with something like...

STEALTHY 3
When an unengaged Wulfing Hunter is attacked with a normal or special attack, add 3 defense dice to the defending Wulfing Hunter.
Use Evasive 3 and copy its wording.
No, he's good; Stealthy already exists on the Darkprowl Thrall.
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  #4552  
Old April 15th, 2021, 02:53 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
That's really good advice. Now that I've had time to fully wrap my head around everything that Dok said, I'm thinking it might be good to lower the power of the unit as an adjustment. Instead of the worrisome (in theory?) No hitzones I'll try to go with something like...

STEALTHY 3
When an unengaged Wulfing Hunter is attacked with a normal or special attack, add 3 defense dice to the defending Wulfing Hunter.
Use Evasive 3 and copy its wording.
No, he's good; Stealthy already exists on the Darkprowl Thrall.
Oh yeah, forgot about that little guy.
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  #4553  
Old April 21st, 2021, 12:46 PM
AsTheRavensFly AsTheRavensFly is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Hi there,

So this is the first custom that I feel like trying to send through SoV. Obviously, I'd like some feedback before going through that process. My original thought was that I really like the vikings in the game, but I feel that they lacked a bit of a punch. So I wanted to make a Viking Berserker that could sort of lead the force. Without any specific synergy built into the plan, he could serve as a standalone as well.

I present:

Name: Ulf The Viking Berserker
Faction:Jandar
Race:Human
Unique Hero
Class:Berserker
Personality:Relentless
Size:Medium 6

Life:5
Move:5
Range:1
Attack:4
Defense:4
Points:100

Impale Special Attack Range 5. Attack 3. When Ulf the Viking Berserker attacks with this special attack, you may choose one figure that is adjacent to the defending figure. If the defending figure is destroyed by this attack, the chosen figure receives one wound

Berserker Rage If Ulf the Viking Berserker receives enough wounds to be destroyed, ignore those wounds and immediately take a turn with Ulf the Viking Berserker. Add 2 to his movement and attack for this turn. Once his turn is over, or if he receives any additional wounds, immediately destroy him.

Berserker Charge After moving and before attacking, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, you may move Ulf the Viking Berserker again.



That's the gist of what I want out of the card. The big thing is the Berkserker Rage. I'm super flexible on left card dynamics as well as point value. I was trying to find that good balance point. I did playtest once with all the vikings and Kelda. It went pretty well. I was facing a two-front battle and was forced to split my group a bit but I was actually able to trigger the Impale Special Attack against Quahon and Z'Thoth. I also hit the charge once out of 3 attempts. I was facing down some elves and after my forces took down a few, I sent Ulf into the fray. He fell to Chardris, but I was able to dish out 2 hits on Chardris with the Berserker Rage.

As for the figure. It is Goliath Barbarian - 08 from the D&D Icons of the Realms: Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden set (which I think is relatively new). I checked several sites Miniature Market had 20+ in stock. Coolstuffinc had at least 10 in stock. Troll and Toad had 19 in stock. And Noble Knight Games had 5 in stock. There also appears to be availability on Ebay and Amazon, though I know that is not part of consideration.

I look forward to working with you all and receiving your feedback.
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  #4554  
Old April 21st, 2021, 01:37 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I like the concept here. It pulls off the berserker concept well. There is a big problem, though: Berserker Rage is a no-go. The problem is that it interrupts anything, including another turn, to take a turn. "Turn stacking," as I call it, is a very hazardous slippery slope that we avoid. Take note of units like the Frost Giant, whose Dying Swipe is attack-like, but not an attack because attacks have to be done within a turn and the Frost Giant can't take a turn during another unit's turn. Not to mention, any sort of "turn interruption" power is tricky to get right, and ones that can trigger off of special attacks can be impossible to make work (due to the fact that special attacks, by definition, break the rules of the game).

There are ways to address this. One would be to delay the bonus turn until the current turn is over, but there's a whole can of worms involved with that. Believe me, we tried that recently with a C3V unit, and it was a nightmare.

I would suggest something more like this:

BERSERKER RAGE
If Ulf the Viking Berserker receives enough wounds to be destroyed, Ulf is not removed from the battlefield. For the remainder of that round, add 2 to Ulf's Move and Attack values. At the end of that round, destroy Ulf.
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  #4555  
Old April 21st, 2021, 01:49 PM
AsTheRavensFly AsTheRavensFly is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I like the concept here. It pulls off the berserker concept well. There is a big problem, though: Berserker Rage is a no-go. The problem is that it interrupts anything, including another turn, to take a turn. "Turn stacking," as I call it, is a very hazardous slippery slope that we avoid. Take note of units like the Frost Giant, whose Dying Swipe is attack-like, but not an attack because attacks have to be done within a turn and the Frost Giant can't take a turn during another unit's turn. Not to mention, any sort of "turn interruption" power is tricky to get right, and ones that can trigger off of special attacks can be impossible to make work (due to the fact that special attacks, by definition, break the rules of the game).

There are ways to address this. One would be to delay the bonus turn until the current turn is over, but there's a whole can of worms involved with that. Believe me, we tried that recently with a C3V unit, and it was a nightmare.

I would suggest something more like this:

BERSERKER RAGE
If Ulf the Viking Berserker receives enough wounds to be destroyed, Ulf is not removed from the battlefield. For the remainder of that round, add 2 to Ulf's Move and Attack values. At the end of that round, destroy Ulf.

Now that I think about it, I do agree with you that any sort of turn interruption could be messy. The Berserker Rage you propose there accomplishes essentially what I want out of the figure in a way to persist after he should be dead. That also makes the wording of the ability a bit easier to work out too.
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  #4556  
Old April 22nd, 2021, 01:25 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Death Knight bonding feels very odd; I would suggest an alternate personality like Wild, but that runs into the same issue with Dreadguls and runs the risk of making Ulf feel more like an Einar Viking than a Jandar one. Perhaps Reckless or Rebellious could work? There are probably many other options, but those are the first two that come to mind for me without carrying any worrisome synergies.

As a very minor mechanical suggestion, one of the things that I appreciate about HS "spear throwing" attacks is that they typically have 4 range, like the Teeth of the Makwa, Mezzodemons, or Greyspears. Some units conditionally boost this like the Achillean Gladiatrix or Master of the Hunt with Javelin, but they also have a base range of 4. Tightening in the range of the SA would help reinforce this aesthetic consistency and paint the figure as a primarily aggressive berserker who can't afford to stay too far back on the battlefield.

Scytale's suggestion for Berserker Rage clears up the mechanics a good deal, albeit there are some minor rules queries that I would have that I'm sure would get cleared up in Editing (mostly just weird stuff like ensuring that the boost doesn't stack and he still gets destroyed even if negated afterward).

More conceptually, I'm not a huge fan of how Berserker Rage and Impale kind of work against each other. The special attack isn't too shabby and will generally be the highlight of the design for the majority of the game, but the potential for one last stand inverts the focus to be a melee figure so long as he can reach the opponent. It's an interesting dynamic on paper, but I worry that the short-term nature of this switch, especially combined with the unreliable nature of Berserker Charge (similar to Javelin to a certain extent), might dilute the playstyle of the unit. I'd keep a careful eye on how that power dynamic plays and what interesting decisions it causes when playtesting.
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  #4557  
Old April 22nd, 2021, 09:03 AM
AsTheRavensFly AsTheRavensFly is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Death Knight bonding feels very odd; I would suggest an alternate personality like Wild, but that runs into the same issue with Dreadguls and runs the risk of making Ulf feel more like an Einar Viking than a Jandar one. Perhaps Reckless or Rebellious could work? There are probably many other options, but those are the first two that come to mind for me without carrying any worrisome synergies.

As a very minor mechanical suggestion, one of the things that I appreciate about HS "spear throwing" attacks is that they typically have 4 range, like the Teeth of the Makwa, Mezzodemons, or Greyspears. Some units conditionally boost this like the Achillean Gladiatrix or Master of the Hunt with Javelin, but they also have a base range of 4. Tightening in the range of the SA would help reinforce this aesthetic consistency and paint the figure as a primarily aggressive berserker who can't afford to stay too far back on the battlefield.

Scytale's suggestion for Berserker Rage clears up the mechanics a good deal, albeit there are some minor rules queries that I would have that I'm sure would get cleared up in Editing (mostly just weird stuff like ensuring that the boost doesn't stack and he still gets destroyed even if negated afterward).

More conceptually, I'm not a huge fan of how Berserker Rage and Impale kind of work against each other. The special attack isn't too shabby and will generally be the highlight of the design for the majority of the game, but the potential for one last stand inverts the focus to be a melee figure so long as he can reach the opponent. It's an interesting dynamic on paper, but I worry that the short-term nature of this switch, especially combined with the unreliable nature of Berserker Charge (similar to Javelin to a certain extent), might dilute the playstyle of the unit. I'd keep a careful eye on how that power dynamic plays and what interesting decisions it causes when playtesting.
I definitely was not picky about the left card. Reckless sounds good to me. I can bring the range of the SA down to 4 as well to align better with other figures.

I do concur with your concerns about the SA and the Berserker Rage. My thoughts on the matter was that as you were in the process of sending him into the fray he might be able to get an attack or two off before he got there. In my playtest I wanted to have him on the front lines. I was able to get him into range with the spear quickly and used it twice, once where the additional part of the ability was successful upon killing Quahon. I then sent him into melee combat with the elves and was able to do some good damage before they took him down.

Thanks for the feedback!
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  #4558  
Old April 22nd, 2021, 09:48 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
More conceptually, I'm not a huge fan of how Berserker Rage and Impale kind of work against each other. The special attack isn't too shabby and will generally be the highlight of the design for the majority of the game, but the potential for one last stand inverts the focus to be a melee figure so long as he can reach the opponent. It's an interesting dynamic on paper, but I worry that the short-term nature of this switch, especially combined with the unreliable nature of Berserker Charge (similar to Javelin to a certain extent), might dilute the playstyle of the unit. I'd keep a careful eye on how that power dynamic plays and what interesting decisions it causes when playtesting.
I like that thematically: going nuts and rushing wildly into the fray. It does feel weird that they play against each other, but the bonus turns are just freebies and it's already valuable that he would be holding space on the battlefield even if he doesn't take a turn.

BTW, you can't use Impale as a name, since the Cathar Spearmen already have Impale.
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  #4559  
Old April 22nd, 2021, 10:25 AM
AsTheRavensFly AsTheRavensFly is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
BTW, you can't use Impale as a name, since the Cathar Spearmen already have Impale.
Noted. I'll come up with something different. To the thesaurus to see what is a synonym for impale (Skewer, kebab, "Spear")
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  #4560  
Old April 22nd, 2021, 10:37 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

You might want a size restriction on Impale, too. Thanks for sharing!

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