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  #7237  
Old April 12th, 2021, 09:04 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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I know they are from human history. I did look that up. As NB said, take a name inspired by that. Or, as you say yourself, take a name that is just a translation from something in some other language. That's all fine.

But there are, as far as I know, *zero* examples of real people - a real clan, here - imported directly into Heroscape, with the exact name being kept, but the specie and planet changing to something fantasy. Zero.

You could change the name to anything. I don't care. But you won't.

It's not the only problem with this design, as I see it, but it seems like an easy fix. Oh well!
Beowulf is very much a mythological story. It also includes dragons and monsters and such. So given that Beowulf and related poems seem to be our primary source of information on the Wulfings, I don't think it's clear that they are real people. According to Wikipedia, they may have been predecessors of the similarly named Wuffingas clan, which we do have evidence of.

But even if the Wulfings were real people, it seems disingenuous to me to say that the Wulfing Hunters are "imported directly into Heroscape, with the exact name being kept." The meaning of the name--"related to wolves" fits with how the Wulfing hunters work. But the Wulfings from Beowulf didn't wear masks and weren't known for being silent hunters, so they have very little connection with this design, they just happen to share the same name.

I feel like this design would be weaker if they were changed to be humans from Earth, because the thematically these guys do not feel like viking clan from Beowulf
Then make them not humans from not Earth. My *only* objection, throughout, has been that they have one foot in both worlds. Just change the name. Even a little bit. This is not as difficult as some of you are making it seem.

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  #7238  
Old April 12th, 2021, 09:43 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Already have another stack of powers tested so I'm prepared lol.
Why?!?! Please don't. The design was just submitted and you've spent hours testing, designing and discussing. It would be a disservice to yourself to just start over.
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  #7239  
Old April 12th, 2021, 09:46 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Already have another stack of powers tested so I'm prepared lol.
Why?!?! Please don't. The design was just submitted and you've spent hours testing, designing and discussing. It would be a disservice to yourself to just start over.
To be clear I'm not withdrawing this submission until I get shot with the No's required. I'm just not quitting
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  #7240  
Old April 13th, 2021, 07:43 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Personally, I like the name Wulfing Hunters and think that it fits the mythologically-inspired Feylund well. That said, the concerns about it potentially being a real historical clan rather than the Beowulf version are certainly valid. Either basing them more firmly on the historical version or the fantasy version would be fine in my eyes, and I don't really see Silent Stalkers as being any more magical than the Shaolin Monks or Disappearing Ninja. This design is already going to face more scrutiny by virtue of adding synergy, so it's worth keeping even any irritants like this in mind.

As for the design itself, I like the change to Silent Stalkers overall. It looks like a significant power boost, but I could see the streamlining of "any adjacency" into just "engagement" being much more intuitive for players. It does lose out on some of the theme of being lone wolves, but that's probably for the better with the renewed focus on Hunter synergy. I do still think that something involving "Camouflage" in the power name would paint a more thematic picture than the current name, but that's not my main gripe right now.

Unfortunately, I think that Hunter Hero Strategic Bonding feels very out of place on this design. The unengaged clause is already easy to miss on what feels like it should be a classic Strategic Bonding power, and I think that the choice dynamic leaves a bit to be desired here. Rather than having a thematic boost for when the Hunter Hero isn't involved (such as "wilder" Dreadguls or rushing dwarves), the ability to take a turn with 4 of the Wulfing Hunters feels like a bandaid to only having two sculpts available. I get that it's a very real problem that we face in not being able to design our own sculpts, but it still feels noticeably off-putting here.

Furthermore, with the streamlined method of taking extra Wulfing turns, the unengaged clause for Hunter Heroes feels even more metagame-y as a way of weakening Himmelskralle. It's a tough spot: I do want to see Hunter synergy in some form and I hope to see the Wulfings return, but I don't think that this Hunter synergy power is up to par and as unique as it can be. I quite liked the tension between engaged and unengaged bonuses from the first draft, but dropping that places a greater focus on how this design "fills a hole" in the canon, and I think that it needs to be scrutinized as such.

to review the Wulfing Hunters.
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  #7241  
Old April 13th, 2021, 07:53 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Thanks for voting!

I wont argue those points but I have concrete explanations that answer your arguments, based in factual evidence, that are ready if you ever want to talk. If this fails I'll consider my time investment and level of interest at trying again since this is the only Avenue to create community accepted customs.

Last edited by Shiftrex; April 13th, 2021 at 11:27 PM.
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  #7242  
Old April 14th, 2021, 12:10 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

With the division on this topic I've decided to update my submission changing it to wulfLing. Just text this time, no fancy bio or synergy list. I also updated a name on a power to try to further communicate something that I find obvious but might just be missed because it lacks the proper paint.

If this affects anyone's vote this go around or if they need some knowledge on how wolves work in the wild (Lone wolves are dead wolves btw) then I'd love to discuss that.



Wulfling Hunters

CARD TEXT:
GENERAL = ULLAR
PLANET = FEYLUND
SPECIES = WULFLING
UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD
CLASS = HUNTERS
PERSONALITY = FEARSOME
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 50

HUNTER HERO PACK BONDING
Before taking a turn with the Wulfling Hunters, you may take a turn with an unengaged Hunter Hero you control. If you do not take a turn with a Hunter Hero, you may move and attack with up to four Wulfling Hunters.

SILENT STALKERS
While a Wulfling Hunter is unengaged it has no visible hitzones.
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  #7243  
Old April 14th, 2021, 12:22 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

That 100% resolves my issue with the name. <- Not a vote that counts for anything.

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  #7244  
Old April 14th, 2021, 01:54 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I love the latest version. It's give Dund some love, and the Master of the Hunt can just use his ranged attack to bond every Wulfling turn.

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  #7245  
Old April 14th, 2021, 06:26 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Taeblewalker View Post
I love the latest version. It's give Dund some love, and the Master of the Hunt can just use his ranged attack to bond every Wulfling turn.
I love this version as well. Hunter Hero Pack Bonding makes perfect sense, and the trade off will help with early game development while having its usefulness in certain circumstances during the mid game. Pricing also seems right at essentially 100pts plus bonding Hero to get your full options (plus however many squads you add past the first two).

There are certainly some fun heroes to bond with here mostly within a 20pt range. Feral Troll is hurt the most by the unengaged clause but thatís probably for the better with Regenerate. Arktos might actually be their best option (range attack and a attack boost to help them stay unengaged). Himmelskralle may actually prefer the unengaged clause so players play her more passively for picks/retreats than actual Onslaughts. Van Nessing is nice for a special attack into a Rats matchup that annoys the Silent Stalkers. Dund can finally be useful staying unengaged and just trying to Crippling Gaze the opponentís OM hogs. And the Master of the Hunt is a strong bonding option for a ranged hero that can take down the big guys.

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  #7246  
Old April 14th, 2021, 09:43 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The name changes are all good to me. My vote stands.
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  #7247  
Old April 14th, 2021, 12:55 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I have said many times that I think the Death Knights of Valkrill are the worst design the original design team ever created. Allow me to explain why (setting aside their undersized sculpts, which are not relevant to this discussion). I apologize for this being a bit rambling, but it's a tricky thing to explain.

I have no problem with weird cross-faction synergies, in principle. It's part of the fun of Heroscape. Ne-Gok-Sa and Me-Burq-Sa were designed to bond with Romans from the start. But that's the point - they were designed that way. They were always meant to be warlords who get warlord bonding. They (and Mittens) got thematic bonding squads later, but that didn't change how they were meant to play.

What makes the Death Knight bonding so bad is that it's a bizarre grab bag of bonding heroes. Dumutef Guard bonding with Death Knights is weird and athematic and changes how they play. Ditto for Air Elementals - just weird. Taelord was arguably the point of the design but it feels like a weird band-aid and not super thematic either. (It felt good to give them one thematic option that is meant to work with them in VC with the Skull Demon.)

I've often said that if the Death Knights didn't exist and were proposed in the SoV, I would reject them as "too custom-y". Nothing in classic really matches the Death Knights in terms of the extent to which it recasts old heroes by slapping some strange cross-faction synergy to something new. It's something I'd like to avoid in our designs. Just because classic created Death Knights (or Isamu/rats/whatever-you-hate) doesn't mean we should.

While the VC customs have certainly expanded the synergy webs of existing figures considerably, we have generally either worked with figures that already had comparable synergies or stuck to pretty thematic pairings. Our most ambitious expansion is probably adding bonding to Jotun with the Dreadguls, but I personally think it feels very thematic, like the wildlings in Game of Thrones allying with giants.

We also added bonding for large constructs, Deathwalkers, monks, Ninjas, etc, but in obviously reasonable, tight synergy webs. Some of these (and other similar new synergy webs) were controversial, and some of them I didn't like personally, but they all showed significant restraint in what they lasso'ed in to their web.

There's also a couple cases where in order to hit the thematic option, we include something weirder, like Crypt Guardians bonding with Chainfighters or Zombie Hulks bonding with Ravagers. I'll admit I've personally grown quite fond of the former combo. Sometimes I'm willing to excuse these things because hey, cross-faction weirdness is part of the game. But it's not like those designs sought out the weird synergy - they just didn't twist the language of the power around to avoid it.

Long story short - there's no super simple rule around how much weird synergy is too much weird synergy, but I really don't want to recreate the Death Knights.

-----

I think it's pretty obvious where I am going with this, but when I look at the Wulfling hunters, it screams Death Knight bonding to me. Find a left box stat, and bond with it. SYNERGY!

I appreciate that the "unengaged" constraint is meant to keep it from being busted with Himmel, but in practice what it probably means is that it only really works well the ranged figures. Dund has always been crippled by the "before moving" timing of crippling gaze, and this would definitely remain true here.

I don't hate Arktos bonding (he already has bonding, after all, and he's probably more thematic than most of the others), but Van Nessing bonding here is pretty strange, and the others on the list just get weirder.

Honestly Arktos is probably the only one that makes competitive sense (in large part due to the hunter attack boost), and much of the time it will default to the latter version of the power, which is just shoehorning a 4-figure squad out of two sculpts. I can appreciate wanting that, but it feels a bit forced.

In short, I think the bonding needs to be something tighter and more thematic than just "hunters", and the default to a 4-figure squad feels like something being done on a custom because you couldn't find more sculpts.

----

Unrelated to all of the above is the matter of the second power. I appreciate that it was simplified from something that I thought made little sense thematically and would probably get played incorrectly. That said, the new version is frankly pretty problematic. Making a common squad immune to ranged attacks until engaged can create some flat-out stalemate situations fairly easily, and could feel borderline unfair in others. And if priced appropriately for their power in those matchups, they will end up getting rolled by melee.

I'd appreciate a much less absolute power. This would also be more thematic, in my opinion - they're hunters, not astral beings, after all. Stealthy X and Concealment X are both good models to follow that make plenty of sense.
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  #7248  
Old April 14th, 2021, 01:11 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I have said many times that I think the Death Knights of Valkrill are the worst design the original design team ever created. Allow me to explain why (setting aside their undersized sculpts, which are not relevant to this discussion). I apologize for this being a bit rambling, but it's a tricky thing to explain.

I have no problem with weird cross-faction synergies, in principle. It's part of the fun of Heroscape. Ne-Gok-Sa and Me-Burq-Sa were designed to bond with Romans from the start. But that's the point - they were designed that way. They were always meant to be warlords who get warlord bonding. They (and Mittens) got thematic bonding squads later, but that didn't change how they were meant to play.

What makes the Death Knight bonding so bad is that it's a bizarre grab bag of bonding heroes. Dumutef Guard bonding with Death Knights is weird and athematic and changes how they play. Ditto for Air Elementals - just weird. Taelord was arguably the point of the design but it feels like a weird band-aid and not super thematic either. (It felt good to give them one thematic option that is meant to work with them in VC with the Skull Demon.)

I've often said that if the Death Knights didn't exist and were proposed in the SoV, I would reject them as "too custom-y". Nothing in classic really matches the Death Knights in terms of the extent to which it recasts old heroes by slapping some strange cross-faction synergy to something new. It's something I'd like to avoid in our designs. Just because classic created Death Knights (or Isamu/rats/whatever-you-hate) doesn't mean we should.

While the VC customs have certainly expanded the synergy webs of existing figures considerably, we have generally either worked with figures that already had comparable synergies or stuck to pretty thematic pairings. Our most ambitious expansion is probably adding bonding to Jotun with the Dreadguls, but I personally think it feels very thematic, like the wildlings in Game of Thrones allying with giants.

We also added bonding for large constructs, Deathwalkers, monks, Ninjas, etc, but in obviously reasonable, tight synergy webs. Some of these (and other similar new synergy webs) were controversial, and some of them I didn't like personally, but they all showed significant restraint in what they lasso'ed in to their web.

There's also a couple cases where in order to hit the thematic option, we include something weirder, like Crypt Guardians bonding with Chainfighters or Zombie Hulks bonding with Ravagers. I'll admit I've personally grown quite fond of the former combo. Sometimes I'm willing to excuse these things because hey, cross-faction weirdness is part of the game. But it's not like those designs sought out the weird synergy - they just didn't twist the language of the power around to avoid it.

Long story short - there's no super simple rule around how much weird synergy is too much weird synergy, but I really don't want to recreate the Death Knights.

-----

I think it's pretty obvious where I am going with this, but when I look at the Wulfling hunters, it screams Death Knight bonding to me. Find a left box stat, and bond with it. SYNERGY!

I appreciate that the "unengaged" constraint is meant to keep it from being busted with Himmel, but in practice what it probably means is that it only really works well the ranged figures. Dund has always been crippled by the "before moving" timing of crippling gaze, and this would definitely remain true here.

I don't hate Arktos bonding (he already has bonding, after all, and he's probably more thematic than most of the others), but Van Nessing bonding here is pretty strange, and the others on the list just get weirder.

Honestly Arktos is probably the only one that makes competitive sense (in large part due to the hunter attack boost), and much of the time it will default to the latter version of the power, which is just shoehorning a 4-figure squad out of two sculpts. I can appreciate wanting that, but it feels a bit forced.

In short, I think the bonding needs to be something tighter and more thematic than just "hunters", and the default to a 4-figure squad feels like something being done on a custom because you couldn't find more sculpts.

----

Unrelated to all of the above is the matter of the second power. I appreciate that it was simplified from something that I thought made little sense thematically and would probably get played incorrectly. That said, the new version is frankly pretty problematic. Making a common squad immune to ranged attacks until engaged can create some flat-out stalemate situations fairly easily, and could feel borderline unfair in others. And if priced appropriately for their power in those matchups, they will end up getting rolled by melee.

I'd appreciate a much less absolute power. This would also be more thematic, in my opinion - they're hunters, not astral beings, after all. Stealthy X and Concealment X are both good models to follow that make plenty of sense.
I'd definitely be interested in talking to you in a chat setting sometime because I can plainly explain every concern you've laid out using direct answers and plain logic for all of the thematics.

As for the competitive and gameplay aspect, I have a lot of data that I could share with you that addresses the concerns of no hitzones. More importantly, itd be great to play a game with you and show you that they arent a threat or a meta breaker to anything except the 4th mass.
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