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  #193  
Old April 24th, 2020, 09:00 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design

I had an idea for these guys the other day and wasn't able to get on and post it right away, but now that I'm trying to remember it, I don't think it improved upon the current power without creating issues. I know it means saving them in the start zone, but we could try letting take their normal turn first anyway. Also, if it's truly "Last" Will, how about this to make sure you can only use a Hero once?

LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, instead of and taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control without an Honored Soul-Guide on its Army Card. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero. Place the destroyed Honored Soul-Guide on that Hero's Army Card.


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  #194  
Old April 24th, 2020, 11:21 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Design

Looks like the title of this thread never got updated to reflect that we're in Editing. @NecroBlade , do you mind fixing that when you get a chance?

I'm cool with trying out letting the Soul-Guides take a turn first before reviving a hero, but let's keep in mind that we're giving Nilfheim 11 move with flying, Q9 a huge threat range, etc. It sucks, but we need to balance with those guys in mind first, even if it's just one more turn.

The idea of limiting the hero revival to once per figure is interesting, although I'm not a huge fan of placing the figures on the card. We could just specify "...remove that hero from the game" at the end of the power to signify that they're no longer eligible, or even directly spell out "Heroes cannot be chosen for Last Will more than once per game." I'm not sure how much cleaner that is in practice, but it might be less confusing for new players (and remembering whether Pyria came back to life or not for your first ghost should be pretty easy).
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  #195  
Old May 2nd, 2020, 04:19 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Last time I checked Nilf and Q9 weren't small or medium, something we settled on a while back for this power.

"Removing figures from the game" isn't ever officially done in any powers, so I'd hesitate to introduce it here (I have a couple customs I like with it, but I wouldn't try to make it official). Reusing "place this figure on a card" seems a simple, clean enough way to do it, IMO. And it gives you a visual reminder, so I don't see how that's not at least as easy as just "remembering" you already revived Pyria.


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  #196  
Old May 2nd, 2020, 06:43 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Using small or medium was to avoid double-space placement issues but it does do a lot to help power concerns.
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  #197  
Old May 2nd, 2020, 06:44 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

I'm ambivalent on whether they should be able to use a hero only once - if you guys think that's needed and we can feasibly do it, then cool. It'll probably reduce their cost.
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  #198  
Old May 4th, 2020, 07:11 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

It makes way more sense with the name Last Will.


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  #199  
Old May 13th, 2020, 10:25 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

If it doesn't make the power too complicated I would be okay with that. Is the feeling that they're already needing a little extra oomph, though?

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  #200  
Old May 13th, 2020, 12:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

I'm not bothered by heroes coming back twice, even when the power is named Last Will. I could see us making the change for balance reasons, though--limiting their revivals to different heroes makes it harder to throw them in to a 200-point powerhouse for two extra turns and encourages more hero-builds.

I have a slight preference towards leaving out the restriction for the sake of simplicity, but I can live with adding it if the majority of the pod feels like it would be a good change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post

"Removing figures from the game" isn't ever officially done in any powers, so I'd hesitate to introduce it here (I have a couple customs I like with it, but I wouldn't try to make it official). Reusing "place this figure on a card" seems a simple, clean enough way to do it, IMO. And it gives you a visual reminder, so I don't see how that's not at least as easy as just "remembering" you already revived Pyria.
I'm okay with introducing "remove from the game" wording if it hasn't been done before since it's relatively intuitive what that means.

I'm hesitant to use so many "place this figure on a card" powers for a variety of reasons (creates more clutter, is more likely to overlap with other powers like Viking Spirits, thematically it doesn't fit as well as spirits or parasites being placed, etc.), but if we want to limit it to one revival per hero, then I can live with it.
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  #201  
Old May 13th, 2020, 01:26 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

to "remove from the game" wording.

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  #202  
Old May 13th, 2020, 09:41 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
If it doesn't make the power too complicated I would be okay with that. Is the feeling that they're already needing a little extra oomph, though?
They do seem a little behind the curve so far I think, but with a lot of potential. I don't think there's really any added complexity, since the HSGs themselves hang around as reminders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
LAST WILL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card and taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control without an Honored Soul-Guide on its Army Card. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero. Place the destroyed Honored Soul-Guide on that Hero's Army Card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I could see us making the change for balance reasons, though--limiting their revivals to different heroes makes it harder to throw them in to a 200-point powerhouse for two extra turns and encourages more hero-builds.

I'm okay with introducing "remove from the game" wording if it hasn't been done before since it's relatively intuitive what that means.
I also really like that as another reason to limit it to once-per-hero: diversifying armies.

As for "remove from the game", the only thing I could think that's sort of similar is maybe dropping figures due to maxed out start zones? Unless that sets a clear precedent, though, I can't see us creating a whole new set of rules around it just for these guys when it can also be accomplished with the tools we already have.


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  #203  
Old May 14th, 2020, 01:35 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

If further testing shows that the Honored Soul Guides are still underperforming a little, I thought of a couple ideas that could give them a bit of a boost.

Quote:
Last Will
After revealing a numbered Order Marker on an Army Card you control, instead of taking a turn with that card you may choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control. Destroy an Honored Soul-Guide that you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that Army Card, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.
This would allow you to have a bit of order marker flexibility, and also allow you to use their main gimmick without risking order markers on them (other than getting them into position).

Another idea I had (and this would be a much more fundamental change) would involve allowing Last Will to work whenever a Soul-Guide is destroyed. This could look something like

Quote:
Journey to the Underworld
After revealing an order marker on this card, instead of taking a turn with this card you may destroy an Honored Soul-Guide you control.

Last Will
Whenever an Honored Soul-Guide you control is destroyed, you may immediately choose a previously destroyed small or medium Unique Hero you control and place the chosen hero on the space that Soul-Guide occupied. Remove all wound markers from that hero's Army Card. Before the next order marker is revealed by any player, immediately take a turn with that hero, and then destroy that hero.
With this change, the Soul-Guides could be very effective at tying down your opponent's figures, as their enemies won't really want to kill them unless they have to. This might be too drastic of a change to the design of the unit and would probably require a point adjustment, but I figured it couldn't hurt to throw out as an idea, even if its the less feasible of the two suggestions.
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  #204  
Old May 14th, 2020, 01:51 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

The trouble with the "Whenever ... is destroyed..." wording is turn interruption gets pretty nasty. You'd have to have a clause about waiting until the current turn ends, which means interrupting possible turn chains (like bonding) and it just gets weird. Not what we want in a master set for sure.

Thanks for getting creative, though. I do like the idea.

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