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  #73  
Old July 12th, 2022, 07:26 AM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
"Do what the card says, not what it doesn't say" is a common (though at times incorrect) motto for situations like this. I'd say the Dzu-Teh remains engaged during the Glacier Traverse movement.
Agreed. Another common saying around here is "It's a game, not a simulation." Thematically, Glacier Traverse may seem like it should work like Flying, but according to the card text it does not.

~Sherman, surprised to find himself posting this much in a Book for the only official unit he no longer owns.
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  #74  
Old July 12th, 2022, 09:56 AM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

You argument is based on what the power thematically does, not what it does mechanically. Mechanically I do not see a reason it would cause LEAs in that particular situation. But I agree that thematically it is different, and mechanically it matches similar powers that are worded better if it does cause LEAs. I wouldn't mind it if the community decided to essentially errata it, but I don't think that's what the power technically says.
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  #75  
Old July 12th, 2022, 12:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

I didn't make a thematic argument at all.
I compared their power with other powers that share its wording and compared how the mechanics functioned in the same situations.

The like-worded powers indicate that powers with these mechanics make the figure leave engagement, and those powers normally have a statement about whether the moved figure takes the LEA itself or not.

Doing what the card says also includes following the rules that are not printed on the card, which includes the rules of Leaving Engagement. Taking a LEA is the default, so in the absence of an explicit indicator, it goes to the default.

Because we know through FAQ that Glacier Traverse does not prevent the moved Dzu-Teh from taking LEAs, that means the same LEA rules should apply to it that applies to all other like-worded powers.

But I also want to say, thanks for going through all this with me, I appreciate it.
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  #76  
Old July 12th, 2022, 12:52 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

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Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
The like-worded powers indicate that powers with these mechanics make the figure leave engagement, and those powers normally have a statement about whether the moved figure takes the LEA itself or not.
The problem is that it's not like-worded. Or rather, this particular power is missing the words that are key to this situation, whereas other powers do not. The question, I suppose, is if all teleport-like movements act fundamentally differently than space-by-space movements, and thus would default to different rules. Because the default for a space-by-space movement is that moving from one engaged position to another does not provoke a LEA.
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  #77  
Old July 12th, 2022, 01:51 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

It can go either way here. If it's a tunneling-like movement, they should take LEAs. But if it's a Phantom Walk-like movement and they stay adjacent to the figure as they walk through the glacier, they should not take LEAs.

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  #78  
Old July 13th, 2022, 04:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

From the Glossary:

How to move normally is defined in the rulebook. "Normally move space to space" means following those rules. Flying bypasses the rules of moving normally. That's why Flying takes LEAs, because you aren't normally moving space to space, you are hopping from one space to another.
Flying isn't imposing a Leaving Engagement Attack as part of the power, it declares they are taken because the figure is leaving engagement by using it.

That's why that's why you can fly-land-fly in a circle around a figure and take six LEAs.
"Your figure may move around an opponent's figure that it is engaged with"
Flying in this way did place the figure around the other, and it was engaged before and after each movement, but it did not "move" as the word is defined in the glossary, or move in a way that exempts LEAs.


The Glacier Traverse, Spear of Summoning, the Glyph of Erland, etc are like-worded. Taelord missing a line in flying didn't mean his Flying wasn't like-worded with other Flying, it was just missing a line, which required him to be eratta'd to the designer's alleged intent.

Dzu-Teh are having a similar problem, where they should have a line declaring LEAs one way or the other, so an eratta would have to side with the FAQ that states they do take LEAs. And if that FAQ didn't exist, it would have to side with the default anyway, which would be the same result.
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  #79  
Old July 13th, 2022, 05:12 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

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Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
Dzu-Teh are having a similar problem, where they should have a line declaring LEAs one way or the other, so an eratta would have to side with the FAQ that states they do take LEAs. And if that FAQ didn't exist, it would have to side with the default anyway, which would be the same result.
The "default" is what we're disagreeing on. The default for any movement is that it provokes LEAs if the figure goes from an engaged position to a non-engaged position. Some powers like Flying override that. There is no default rules behavior that says that a figure would take a LEA if it goes from an engaged position to another engaged position--there are, however, powers that state that outright. Those are the exceptions, not the default.
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  #80  
Old July 13th, 2022, 06:02 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
The question, I suppose, is if all teleport-like movements act fundamentally differently than space-by-space movements, and thus would default to different rules. Because the default for a space-by-space movement is that moving from one engaged position to another does not provoke a LEA.
Ok I think I get what you’re saying here. The Leaving an Engagement rules refer to moving normally. Because a power like Glacier Traverse is “instead of moving normally,” it must abide by its own set of rules.

But it still stands that the precedent for every other similar power declares whether or not it will take a LEA, and we know that it can, so it should follow suit that it is the same for the Dzu-Teh as it is for the Marro Drudge, Mika and the Earth Elemental.
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  #81  
Old July 13th, 2022, 06:47 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

Quote:
Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
But it still stands that the precedent for every other similar power declares whether or not it will take a LEA, and we know that it can, so it should follow suit that it is the same for the Dzu-Teh as it is for the Marro Drudge, Mika and the Earth Elemental.
Every other similar power explicitly states it. Glacier Traverse does not. Normally that implies they are different, but the reality is that Heroscape wording is very inconsistent.
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  #82  
Old August 1st, 2022, 08:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

Really don't want to start this up again but maybe this would clear it up.

Traverse...that generally means to move across. In terms of a larger area it can mean moving through the area (i.e. He traversed the rain forest). Although I'm quite sure that doesn't mean "he" tunneled through specific trees.

So I would have assumed Glacier Traverse would be to move across the Glacier and not to tunnel under or through. Therefor it doesn't leave engagement by moving to another adjacent space of the same figure. You're allowed to circle your opponent.

Fully agree though, the wording is very inconsistent.

Just when you thought it was all right, someone made it alright.

Good trades with - Porkins / xraine69 / mac122 (x2) / frylock / Ztimster (x2) and probably others I forgotten to mention...sorry.

Last edited by AMIS; August 1st, 2022 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Circling in flight just means getting dizzy...
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  #83  
Old August 2nd, 2022, 06:27 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

I would agree with you if it said:

GLACIER TRAVERSE
Dzu-Teh may move through Glaciers.

But instead, it is placed, so it should follow the same rules that all other placing powers, which operate as though the figure breaks engagement in order to be placed, even if it reenters the engagement after being placed.


This is why the FAQ, to me, also indicates that any time it is engaged before using Glacier Traverse, it takes LEAs from those figures, even one it reenters engagement with.
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  #84  
Old August 7th, 2022, 06:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Dzu-Teh

Don't understand the argument.

The figure leaves engagement when it moves away from an adjacent space. Moving across the glacier (traversing) doesn't mean it's moved out of being adjacent...it's just gone up onto the side of the glacier and down onto another hex. If both hexes are adjacent to the figure's opponent then unless the player states or shows that the Dzu-Teh moved to the other side of the glacier and back again it seems awfully clear to me that the figures were never apart by more than one hex; i.e. they have never left engagement.

If you move from one adjacent hex to another...you have to "place" the figure in that hex...it doesn't mean that figure left engagement just to get re-engaged.

Is the wording throughout the years inconsistent on different powers...yes it is. But I really don't see an issue with this one.

I'm lost...but I think the confusion is we're comparing rules across a game instead of figuring out what this power is.

Just when you thought it was all right, someone made it alright.

Good trades with - Porkins / xraine69 / mac122 (x2) / frylock / Ztimster (x2) and probably others I forgotten to mention...sorry.

Last edited by AMIS; August 7th, 2022 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Confusion is a state of mind. Kind of like New York.
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