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HeroScape General Discussion General discussions of packaging, terrain, components, etc. If it doesn't fit in any other official category, put it here.


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  #1  
Old August 3rd, 2008, 05:45 PM
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Playing to win

I noticed some interesting discussion on being seen as a "good" player, using A+, etc units and the overall discussion of playing to win versus playing for fun in Cleon's "Type 2" tournament army thread (found here: http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=20506) and it made me think of an article and subsequent book written called Playing to win.

This writer has developed some ideas about how those being decried as "cheap" are actually having a much deeper experience than other players and it explores this whole realm of thinking. Although the article is written about fighting games (Street Fighter, specifically) I couldn't help but think of Heroscape in every way when I re-read it today. Some people call Braxis or Q9 "cheap", some people see them as a viable tactical option available in their pool of figures.

Here is a sampling from the beginning of the article:
Quote:
You're not going to see a classic scrub throw his opponent 5 times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize his chances of winning? Here we've encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you...that's cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that's cheap, too. We've covered that one. If you sit in block for 50 seconds doing no moves, that's cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.
I put an emphasis on some of the more interesting points in this section. These were definitely the parts that made me think.

Link to the article: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1

Also, the book is available online for free (though I have only begun reading it)
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

I'm a person who would gladly choose a wacky combination of units in order to have fun. I'm having fun even when I'm not winning, but one of the guys in my playgroup is all about pummeling the opponent into the ground, and that is how he has fun.

I think both styles of play are valid, but my question to everyone is: DO you agree with this mindset of "playing to win?" Do you ascribe to it or loathe it?

What do you think?

Currently investing way to much time for a college student in: nerfing, heroscape, and urban exploration.


Soon moving to Greensburg, PA. 'Scape there? Let me know

Last edited by Jedijoe9; August 3rd, 2008 at 06:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old August 3rd, 2008, 06:02 PM
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Re: Playing to win

I play to win. Do you I use every A+ unit in the book? Nope. I play to win using A-B units. I try to make the best army I can, but I don't need A+ units to do that...all of the time. (I've been known to field Realin a lot) Most of the time my armies are strong, but I don't need that KMA, Q9, Realin, Laglor combo to win. I can do just fine using other units that I consider very worth it. KMA, Cyprien, AE, Zelrig, 10th Regiment, Microcorp,etc. I don't look at the ranking when I build an army, I look at past experiences I have had with them. And I look at synergy.
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Old August 3rd, 2008, 06:43 PM
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Re: Playing to win

I play to win, too. Sometimes I get upset if the dice turn up against me. But I do not play to win at all cost. Cheating, dirty tricks are what I do not like.
I do not have any problem with someone who plays with Q9, 4th Mass or any kind of A+ units. But I do lower my respect (in terms of playing Heroscape) toward a person if he/she plays the same army every time. And it gets boring. When I play a regular game, I want to come up with something new that I think can win and play to win with it.
Playing in a tournament is another story. The army you bring to a tournament should be the one you think has the best chance to win. It does not mean that you can't have fun playing tournament, though.

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Old August 3rd, 2008, 06:58 PM
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Re: Playing to win

I may not play to win, but I certainly don't play to lose.

I'm not fond of all those lower classed luck units, like Sudema... but I love using units like Dund and Deathwalker7000. Hardly ever do I use Q9 in any of my games, even at hardcore tournaments. When playing against those "A+" units, its usually the guys people don't expect that will do the most damage. I'm talking to you Dund, staring down all those 4th Mass.

Like what EP said, I usually use experience to pick my teams. I sometimes actually have a problem using Q9. As its no fun just plowing down an army in the first round. Synergy is loads of fun. Using the Gruts to move Ornak to move Grut Champions is just a blast.

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  #5  
Old August 3rd, 2008, 07:21 PM
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Re: Playing to win

I play to win. I just don't army build to win. I'll probably be a bit more selective when it comes to the armies I'll be taking to GenCon, but I haven't built any of them yet (though I've got a very good idea of what I'll be using for one of the tournaments). I enjoy trying new things and seeing what I can pull off with it.

I'm not big into theme armies, though I try them out now and then. And I'm even less into armies that people talk about as being "cheap" or "tournament proven". I'm just not into this game so I can figure out how best to stomp my opponent. Others are, and that's fine. I've never really seen why something would be considered "cheap" as I've lost to and won against a very wide variety of armies.

In the end, I just like the game and couldn't care less about only playing to win.
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Old August 3rd, 2008, 07:26 PM
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Re: Playing to win

I love themed armies and always play them. The theme is "units that work together well enough to bring about a victory." <grin>
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Old August 3rd, 2008, 07:28 PM
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Re: Playing to win

I play to win. Like Puppydog said, I don't use specificly A+ Units, though I might use one from time to time. I look at my figures and make the best army army posible. Like Wind Lane said, I don't like themed armies. I don't usally use commons simply because I don't have a lot of commons. I only have one of each each. I use commons all the tme, but never in tournaments. I always have fun with my armies.

And I've never lost in a tournament game yet, so........

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Old August 3rd, 2008, 07:31 PM
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Re: Playing to win

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer View Post
I love themed armies and always play them. The theme is "units that work together well enough to bring about a victory." <grin>
I gotta try that sometime...hmm maybe I will do that in 10 days


Although I may be entering the most unorthodox army in the Above Cursed Lands tournament.
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  #9  
Old August 3rd, 2008, 08:08 PM
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Re: Playing to win

I never really play to win, I play to have fun!
In several Tournaments, I always help out, and usually help people that forget a certain thing. If they forgot to add Height, I remind them, among other things. I find playing to win is pretty wrotten of a person if they will do anything to win!

I'm fine with people playing units that i don't care to play, because as long as they like to play them, I'm happy to have a battle with them.I won't be caught playing with them, but that is my personal belief.[Kinda like Uprisings 1 General thing!]

As long as someone wants to have fun, I'm fine with them playing what ever they want.

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Old August 3rd, 2008, 08:08 PM
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Re: Playing to win

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer View Post
I love themed armies and always play them. The theme is "units that work together well enough to bring about a victory." <grin>
I'm not sure how serious you are, Rev, but this is the perfect truth in my case. From time to time an actual Theme finds its way into my army. Mostly its "units with some synergy and their resulting potential against whatever army they face" (Wow, Rev, our teams need new names ).

As far as playing with "A+" units, it pays to remember that those rankings are a comparison to the rest of the units as one, big conglomerate. Specific circumstances will always allow for "low-rank" units to shine, even in a competitive game. I'm not knocking the power rankings, I'm just saying that there are games that demand the use of C+ units and games where A+ units will crash and burn.

So do I play to win? Nah, I usually try to lose. Its just I'm so darn good that sometimes I can't help it.
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Old August 3rd, 2008, 08:09 PM
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Re: Playing to win

Win or lose, I just love playing the game. Everyone needs a good win once in a while though. At this point I don't really care if I play someone with an A+ army. If they are there to throw some dice and have fun, it's cool with me.
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Old August 3rd, 2008, 08:56 PM
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Re: Playing to win

The last few "for fun" games I've played, my opponent fielded Q9. I find it rather boring and unimaginative to the point of being irritated with it. I sometimes lash out verbally at my opponent when they pull out the old Q9. If I want to play a competitive, in your face, prepare for a tourney type game, then I will mention it, but if I just want a friendly game, then lets be more imaginative and explore some unique army mixtures. This has even happened to me in a draft game. I win first choice and choose Gueri Oni, then my opponent picks Q9, Krav Mag agents........ *Yawn* roll eyes....

I would argue that the players who continually rely on powerful unit combos DO NOT earn a deeper gaming experience. I disagree with the original poster.

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