The Book of Blacksmith

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I mean, I'm fine with dropping the markers. They were originally there as a check to concerns about modifying special attacks. If we're moving away from straight modifications into territory we've already done with Evil Dead (that's a precedent on Ash Williams for the double attacks for special attacks, LP) then I'd be OK with dropping the markers if other folks are.

I also, honestly, heartily, agree that granting a double attack to special attacks and adding +1 to special attacks has about the same level of disruption/potential concern, but one is seen as a sacred cow and one we've actually done as a group, so I'm kind of in "pick your battles" mode. I think either hits the theme I want (she upgrades the Rogues' abilities and effectiveness) and either hit the mechanical interactions I want for the faction.

A dangling concern for going with japes' proposal is whether @japes is OK with how she will synergize with the Rogues thematically. I know there was some discussion on that in the LCW and on Discord and I want to know his concerns have been satisfied before trying to move forward.

For the mechanics of #6 itself, I think there are easy ways to make it clearer, such as if the Rogue attacks with a special attack, they get one additional turn in which they can only attack, or something like that.

Originally Posted by Ronin

I like that with this direction she helps the Rogues with weaker SAs, but not to the point of excluding Rogues without them.

Like she's just giving em a second crack at dealing a wound, so a Rogue with a beefy attack (like Girder) that's liable to get a wound in the first place is still a reasonable buddy for her.

Should help with japes' concerns about running the tightly thematic team.

My concern is the Red portion here and Yes as Ronin points out that helps with my concerns.

[japes]

Also i see @Lord Pyre point. Is giving them a full attack phase so that the double attackers get a second crack with both attacks for sure the way you are going rather than giving them on more attack. I think he's just making sure we are ready to go down this road for future Rogues and having to limit their SA so they don't get pigeon holed in Blacksmith builds forever and suck in every other Rogue build.

Rogues don't have a huge roster left so maybe we never run into this issue.

[Yodaking]

LD's choice.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm, not to slow my own process, but since we made this change, should we give some love to the Girders and Mirror Masters of the world?

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

ROGUE ROSTER UPGRADES
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Blacksmith, you may take a turn with one other Rogue Hero you control. After taking a turn this way, if that Rogue attacked with a special attack and did not inflict any wounds, you may immediately take an additional turn with that Rogue, during which it cannot move.

[Arch-vile]

[Karat]

Seems like a good choice

[tcglkn]

I like that just fine.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by japes

Kind of makes me wish we'd had this conversation with this discussion and all reached this understanding before Blacksmith...maybe we could have just let her allow them to re-roll or re-roll the blanks? As I do agree re-rolling isn't modifying, it's ignoring the attack (which is allowed in many powers as you've stated) and then just letting them roll again.

At least we all seem to be on the same page with this interpretation even if we are not 100% on board.

I'm open to going a similar direction that feels more like an "upgrade." That's my one complaint about the direction that we are currently taking (other than it's a long winded way to essentially just get a reroll, yeah). Giving a second activation just for attacking doesn't really make them feel "upgraded".

I'm not trying to push Blacksmith too fast right now though, since I have several things I want to playtest before I am going to get to her initial, so there's some time for folks to chime in here about your thoughts and wishes!

[Karat]

Re-fill makes sense

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Karat

Re-fill makes sense

Especially if you're thirsty!

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Especially if you're thirsty!

Next round is on Bat's

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Hmm, not to slow my own process, but since we made this change, should we give some love to the Girders and Mirror Masters of the world?

OK, this is the direction we WERE going in, and I was fine with it, even if it lost a bit of the "upgrades" theme to me.

It SEEMS that folks are OK with the idea of rerolls not being seen as modification to a special attack (perhaps because it doesn't increase the ceiling any, but keeps the results in the already tested for range of outcomes?). How would folks feel about this change?

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

ROGUE ROSTER UPGRADES
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Blacksmith, you may take a turn with one other Rogue Hero you control. If that Rogue attacks with a normal or special attack on this turn, then before dice are rolled for the defending figure you may reroll all blanks until no blanks are shown.

(Or if the Bronze Tiger style is too powerful, it can just be a straight reroll of blanks or a straight reroll. Basically let me know what you guys are game for and prefer!).