The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Let's see. The Durgeth don't really seem like an umlaut type of people.

I don't think the whole card quite comes together, but before I can address that I have to admit that the Comfrey plant power seems off. I don't know of any power in the game that can heal a hero of wounds automatically, let alone 3 heroes. The limitation to Durgeth does help, but setting aside balance concerns I have a precedent concern. It feels like it breaks precedent unnecessarily. Go for a passive healing power with a d20 (like Ana Karithon, though you could make the roll lower) or an active healing power like TKN or Rhogar. Since the theme is using plants, I would say it shouldn't involve inflicting wounds or destroying figures; I might think about an auto heal on a single figure instead of an attack or by sacrificing an OM or something. But I think I'd rather just see a (low) roll.

Admittedly I wanted to try something more unique than the typical healing powers we’ve seen. I DID consider a Ana-type ability and Did playtest a healing ability with a low roll that only effected himself or 1 other hero. But like I mentioned, I just didn’t like how the ability remained unused because he was preferred to sit in the SZ while buffing Durgeth rather than risk dying in combat. So I felt like this could really be a unique ability that remained restricted in overall power (healing requires adjacency and only Durgeth).

That all said, I’ve lately been considering removing the Comfrey ability altogether. But I’d prefer not to because I’d love for such a thematic ability to be a part of this faction.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Looking for some feedback.

Really liking where this guy ended up...but wanna make sure I'm not off-base before moving forward on more in-depth playtesting.



Key points here:
1) Per the mini's stance and posture, he is a leader with power and presence = Supremacy Ability
2) Durgeth were known for 2 things, their combat skills in the swamp = hence his ability to remain "hidden" in the swamp and
3) their long life per the Comfrey Plants = his ability to master the use of the Comfrey Plants

Some points so far on playtesting. Previously there wasn't enough tension between his 2 powers. He could just do +1 as a cheerleader and could only heal 1 hero 1 wound and you had to roll for it. After playtesting I realized he really didn't do very well at either role as a support hero that could come in and heal and hit, nor sit back and maintain an advantage from afar. So, I decided here to push the envelope a bit and really create tension between the 2 powers that make him more useful. His supremacy ability is definitely strong enough to warrant him as a late game hero bonder, but his ability to heal multiple heroes is pretty incredible as well, therefore pushing him to be up in the action. Played right, he could be up in the action the whole time while maintaining the healing, but the tension is definitely there. I also like that his ability creates design space for more Durgeth heroes to reach his full potential since there is only 1 Durgeth Hero right now (he would/could be the 2nd and there may be more eventually)

To be perfectly honest a healing valkrill unit is a non starter for me. I can see valkrill yelling across the battle field "what the hell are you doing? put down those stupid plants and kill something".

Supremacy + either hide in the the swamp or lurk in the swamp is such a classic design you don't need any more fluff. I have the same unit in my personal collection with the same figure ant it works just fine. price her right and you have something worthy of canon. nothing special but very fitting like venoc warlord, thorgrim, tornak, or parmenio - all simple bonding cheerleaders.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by wriggz

To be perfectly honest a healing valkrill unit is a non starter for me. I can see valkrill yelling across the battle field "what the hell are you doing? put down those stupid plants and kill something".

Supremacy + either hide in the the swamp or lurk in the swamp is such a classic design you don't need any more fluff. I have the same unit in my personal collection with the same figure ant it works just fine. price her right and you have something worthy of canon. nothing special but very fitting like venoc warlord, thorgrim, tornak, or parmenio - all simple bonding cheerleaders.

Hahaha, that made me laugh. I agree Valkrill may not be thrilled about that, BUT it is part of the Canon that their long life was due to the use of Comfrey plants and their healing properties. before this version I was actually considering removing the ability altogether (like I mentioned before), but again I just think it'd be wrong to not include this somehow in a Durgeth unit when it's a central part of who they are. I don't know...maybe this is just the wrong unit to introduce this kind of ability? Or maybe it could be represented my more life? or maybe it's only a self-healing/self-serving ability rather than one he can use on others?

[wriggz]

f I recall correctly it's worth noting it is never stated they USE the comfrey plants, only that it gives them long life. it could be something the plants give off in the water or air as a passive boost. maybe that is how hide in the swamp works and the supremacy is a buff derived from that.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by wriggz

f I recall correctly it's worth noting it is never stated they USE the comfrey plants, only that it gives them long life. it could be something the plants give off in the water or air as a passive boost. maybe that is how hide in the swamp works and the supremacy is a buff derived from that.

mmm...you bring up a good point. I don't remember specifically how they used them now that you mention it...I'll have to look into that.

EDIT: It says that the Durgeth "used the shifting swamps to their advantage." So I believe that ability is where we get Hide in Swamp (and Lurk in Swamp with Veguzza). In reference to the Comfrey Plants, this is what it says from the RotV Rulebook with the Durgeth Swamp Scenario:
When the Durgeth were overrun, their secrets to long life was uncovered-the unique minerals in the swamp cause the comfrey plants’ leaves to secrete a potent medicine.
So....this is quite interesting...because this could definitely be a passive benefit they received just by living in the swamps rather than a person being required to apply the plant in some way.

[Heroscaper Guy]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

mmm...you bring up a good point. I don't remember specifically how they used them now that you mention it...I'll have to look into that.

EDIT: It says that the Durgeth "used the shifting swamps to their advantage." So I believe that ability is where we get Hide in Swamp (and Lurk in Swamp with Veguzza). In reference to the Comfrey Plants, this is what it says from the RotV Rulebook with the Durgeth Swamp Scenario:
When the Durgeth were overrun, their secrets to long life was uncovered-the unique minerals in the swamp cause the comfrey plants’ leaves to secrete a potent medicine.
So....this is quite interesting...because this could definitely be a passive benefit they received just by living in the swamps rather than a person being required to apply the plant in some way.

I mean comfrey in real life has to be applied (at least to my knowledge), to wounds as a coagulant through physical touch with the plant. Think thats what the native americans used it for.

[Leaf_It]

Yeah, Comfrey is a real life Herb. You can eat it (tastes weird, but not terrible) for certain illnesses, make a poultice out of it for infections, or wrap the large leaves around wounds as a bandage. It has really strong medicinal effects. It has long and slender leaves, kind of shaped like a banana, but like 2 to 3 times longer than your average banana, especially in warmer climates like the jungles and the Durgeth swamps where the Ravagers come from. It would definitely NOT be something in the air, or the water if they are based on the real life thing.

When I was growing up, my family was really poor, and my mom grew herbs that she used for a lot of injuries, and illness that we got. We only went to the doctor if we got really sick, or if a bone broke.

[Sir Heroscape]

Good insight! lol I didn't even know it was a real plant. So, it sounds like the minerals in the swamp are what activated the potent, medicinal secretions within the plant itself, but in order to receive the benefits...the Durgeth likely would have had to apply the plant in some way (drinking it in a potion or wrapping an injury etc). So, I don't think I'm off base here. That said, maybe this mini isn't the right one to have that type of power and he would be better suited to have a simpler design as Wriggz suggests. I'm okay with that, but based off of the lore, it also seems that the Durgeth - as an entire people - used the Comfrey plants as a way of life...so having that be a part of the design seems important to me. idk...I'm kinda talking myself in and out of this with my own points and Wriggz/Caps points. Maybe this type of power would just be better served by some sort of Shaman-like mini?

[Heroscaper Guy]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Good insight! lol I didn't even know it was a real plant. So, it sounds like the minerals in the swamp are what activated the potent, medicinal secretions within the plant itself, but in order to receive the benefits...the Durgeth likely would have had to apply the plant in some way (drinking it in a potion or wrapping an injury etc). So, I don't think I'm off base here. That said, maybe this mini isn't the right one to have that type of power and he would be better suited to have a simpler design as Wriggz suggests. I'm okay with that, but based off of the lore, it also seems that the Durgeth - as an entire people - used the Comfrey plants as a way of life...so having that be a part of the design seems important to me. idk...I'm kinda talking myself in and out of this with my own points and Wriggz/Caps points. Maybe this type of power would just be better served by some sort of Shaman-like mini?

Yeah this is the wikipedia article on the plant:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphytum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphytum

. My dad grew them for a bit.

[Lazy Orang]

I definitely would want to see Comfrey represented within the Durgeth in some way, since it's one of the most notable parts of their canon, and the best way to do that is healing. Under other circumstances, I'd agree with wriggz and avoid any healing for Valkril, but I think representing the Comfrey Plants for the Durgeth at some point is a necessity and an exception. Hell, it might make it more interesting and notable since it will be the only access to healing Valkril will have.
The mini looks like he could be a shaman to me. Maybe he doesn't have to be, but he could be.

[wriggz]

And I think this is where the difference between an sov unit and a personal custom. the simple bonding cheerleader is obvious since this is the third time I've seen it in one form or another. Priced right that unit would likely sail through sov since if the ravagers came out in a wave back in the day you would be almost certain to see a unit like this in the hero pack. A healing shaman would be more creative and unique but not necessarily an obvious addition to canon.

Some of my favorite personal customs are to 'special' for canon, and I think I'm one of the more conservative designers. it is the simple designs that fit with the 4th, gorillanators or gladiators.

I also I admit I'm not looking for units to impress a superfan like myself. I look at a unit from my wife's perspective who might occasionally play or from my son who i will start teaching to play before he can read. in those cases cognitive load is important too many powers activating at the same time or too often can be off putting.

So my suggestion is either submit the obvious (if not exciting) design or come up with a shaman (not savage) that excites you.

[Scytale]

I really don't like the "if it's in the lore, we must make a custom for it" mindset. That detracts from the lore by ripping it from out imaginations and making it into a mechanic.

Veguzza is basically a swamp troll with Durgeth Supremacy. Yeah, the healing can affect others, but it's hard to set up. Mostly Veguzza will just keep healing herself Regeneration-style.

I'm with wriggz in that healing just doesn't seem fitting, not for Valkrill or the wild Durgeth. The other two powers are already plenty interesting plus Ravager synergy.