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  #4537  
Old April 13th, 2021, 07:03 AM
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Skinderella Skinderella is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

A limited move would probably be the best way to go about this. The initial reason I set one was to make her make her usable in a lot of armies, but the slower the figure the more useful it is to them (although maps also play a part). It could mean it's a bigger buff to slow units, whilst being weaker but still usable to faster ones.

In regards to scenarios in casual play, the amount of set up required to get her and other figures to a spot you want to fly to or over is already greater then just using a flying unit like Cyprien, dragons, and since we talking casual, the Marvel characters. Alternatively, as you mentioned, teleporters, Sgt. Drake, Theracus, Airborne Elite, Retchets. Plenty of figures already break this, and I imagine plenty of other figures break different scenarios as well.

And as it is anyway, in a lot of cases you may be better off using someone like Theracus anyway. With 3-4 move you have to spend turns moving your figures and Valtia together, or rush a unit ahead to get into position that they can be picked off. Theracus on the other hand, can cover that ground much quicker for a lot cheaper. Granted, you do this flight on non-Valtia turns.

A possible alternative could be a Marker system for her. Say she starts with 3 or 4, regains one at the end of every round, and each time a single figure uses the flight, you remove a marker. It'd drastically limit it's viability on squads whilst also being stronger on heroes. One squad would burn through most, if not all, of the markers, and definitely so with a bonding squad. At this point I'd be tempted to remove the move limit, but Krav Maga could still be a concern. I don't know the consensus on marker powers but this could help limit how powerful it is. Or maybe even an "X" OM reveal, or just a once per round clause. I like the marker idea a bit more just so it's stronger on heroes.

In her current state, she's not been too strong and hasn't dominated games even at 80 points. I'm certainly up for increasing her points and/or maybe lowering her life if it helps balancing her. Ideally I'd like to keep her at 80 since that lines up with so many classic Kyrie, but I'm also aware her aura is also very strong so this likely won't be the case, and that many other Kyrie are also not 80.

I'm glad she's coming across a lot stronger as a classic Kyrie with this design though, that's been a goal of mine since my last feedback and it's great to hear that is the case! Really appreciating all this feedback so thanks everyone!
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  #4538  
Old April 13th, 2021, 11:36 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

It's a trap to think that balance is the key factor. Balanced or not, not everything belongs in the game. Actually, balance usually the easy part.
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  #4539  
Old April 13th, 2021, 01:01 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I think you could either make her aura only apply to figures with a Range of 1 (however thematically odd that may be) or just go the Taelord route and make her super-expensive to account for the potency of her buff.

Outside of the Start Zone on smaller maps, she does require some positioning to set up. Extreme elevations, lava, and castles are rare in competitive maps and already have units that break them.

~TAF

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  #4540  
Old April 13th, 2021, 04:22 PM
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Skinderella Skinderella is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
It's a trap to think that balance is the key factor. Balanced or not, not everything belongs in the game. Actually, balance usually the easy part.
I don't see why this couldn't belong in the game though. It brings a new option to the table but also acts similar to other figures out there like Theracus or Saylind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAverageFan View Post
I think you could either make her aura only apply to figures with a Range of 1 (however thematically odd that may be) or just go the Taelord route and make her super-expensive to account for the potency of her buff.

Outside of the Start Zone on smaller maps, she does require some positioning to set up. Extreme elevations, lava, and castles are rare in competitive maps and already have units that break them.

~TAF
The limit to range of 1 could work and stops a lot of the bigger issues with ranged figures, but thematically would be strange like you said. Though you could potentially say the say thing for figures like Finn.

Super expensive could also work but in a way feels like the easy way out in my opinion; it solves the issue by just making her too expensive to fit in the majority of places and not really draftable. Though that could be where she should sit, and she could be a worth while investment even then map depending. I can see her hitting that price range if a slight buff is given to the aura, or if something really strong crops up.

I don't recall many competitive maps having sheer heights that would cause Valtia to be ridiculously strong in her current state. Things like terrain are the reason you'd want to invest in a figure like this as opposed to an extra squad or Raelin. Your dropping bulk or a key squad or hero for extra mobility options.
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  #4541  
Old April 13th, 2021, 06:46 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

While hiking the price might feel like an (ironically) cheap fix, sometimes the power in question simply demands it. Units like Taelord and Arashara Goshiri command outrageous prices solely for the potency of their one ability. And that's okay.

~TAF, couldn't comment on much else but does feel that a Kyrie granting temporary flight to her allies does feel very Heroscape-y. Better than a Glyph of Flight anyway

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  #4542  
Old April 13th, 2021, 07:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

This is my backup submission that I was talking about if Strategic bonding flopped and failed, which it just did about five minutes ago. Design is already tested, I played 7 games with each of my designs in the event of such failures. Contingencies beyond contingencies.

GENERAL = ULLAR
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD
CLASS = HUNTERS
PERSONALITY = FEARSOME
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 50

WULFING PACK
You may move and attack with up to 4 unengaged Wulfing Hunters.

AMBUSH
Before taking a turn with the Wulfing Hunters you may reveal the X order marker on this Army Card, if you do then you may take a turn with a Hunter Hero you control.

SILENT STALKERS
While a Wulfing Hunter is unengaged it has no visible hitzones.

This design goes even simpler, it makes them into boring human units from the planet earth inspired by myths that we have. Pack hunters let's them be a four man squad, wolves are pack Hunters and the name Wulfing means "wolf like" so I hope no one trips on that aspect.

Silent Stalkers, nothing has changed here.

Ambush, simple name for a simple power. The hidden X Order Marker allows you to launch a once per round ambush with a hunter hero. Wolf Packs employ different members for different purposes... this power should show that adequately and it marries up the ideas of Stealth and Pack hunting as they should be and are demonstrated in real life.

Does this design have better traction? I think it is certainly simpler and addresses noted concerns.

Last edited by Shiftrex; April 13th, 2021 at 08:07 PM.
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  #4543  
Old April 13th, 2021, 08:36 PM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Limited hunter hero bonding to once per round isn't really addressing concerns with hunter hero bonding. Makes it less powerful, sure, but it's still just hunter hero bonding.

Wulfing Pack is pretty obviously making up for the fact that it's a 2-man squad. Which it is a 2-man squad. The "unengaged" requirement is interesting, though it does have the odd result of them going inactive once they become engaged.

The Wulfing name is less likely to be acceptable as humans, I suspect. Unless these guys are based on the Wulfings from the stories; I don't know much about them, but if "they have very little connection with this design," as you noted with the SoV one, you'll have to go with a different name.
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  #4544  
Old April 13th, 2021, 08:45 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wulfings

The name can honestly be interpreted eitherway, it is pretty subjective.

Wow... that's really disappointing but definitely understandable when you note that it doesnt address... concerns. I guess I was right 4 months ago when I had it in my head that you guys just dont like Hunter Bonding. If that's the feeling, I get it.

You definitely are right, they go inert after engagement and become really boring figures. The real excitement came from the complexity that the original design had... without complexity we eventually arrive at a very boring place.

I'll think for a while then, thankyou for such a quick response but that's a large set back. Especially since I cant test any more for the next 3 weeks.
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  #4545  
Old April 13th, 2021, 09:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Especially since I cant test any more for the next 3 weeks.
Says who? have you ever played online?
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  #4546  
Old April 13th, 2021, 09:23 PM
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Heroscaper Guy Heroscaper Guy is online now
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Especially since I cant test any more for the next 3 weeks.
Says who? have you ever played online?

Yeah he has, im assuming he's busy.

"They are too numerous to fight. What shall we do?" "Fight anyway."

"You can never defeat another if you know not how to defeat yourself."
my tradelist
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  #4547  
Old April 13th, 2021, 09:54 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That's correct, I dont have the ability to play games during those particular dates due to long days and instant response responsibilities.

I can stoop low but I'm not playing with coins on paper, alone at 3am lol

Last edited by Shiftrex; April 13th, 2021 at 10:13 PM.
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  #4548  
Old April 14th, 2021, 09:46 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Wow... that's really disappointing but definitely understandable when you note that it doesnt address... concerns. I guess I was right 4 months ago when I had it in my head that you guys just dont like Hunter Bonding. If that's the feeling, I get it.
Giving old figures bonding or giving them turns from leadership powers is something that's been done and done again, including by us. For some time now the Inner Sanctum has pushed back on it, encouraging other forms of synergy to increase variety in the game. It's not impossible to get bonding/leadership through (Clayton Pierce is an example), but it's an uphill battle for sure. I think the current Wulfing submission has a chance, as long as your willing to make adjustments to smooth over other areas that bother people, like you did with the name.

The Inner Sanctum would be excited to see some fun, thematic Hunter synergy that is something other than granting bonus turns.
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