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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.


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  #181  
Old April 9th, 2021, 11:56 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

I think B+ is right for Arrows. There's some other stuff like Arrows in the B+ tier that can get hot and do well in a Cheese tournament if they find the right matchups like Cutters.

I think I'd move Zombies down from B+. They just are not that good, especially against the sorts of high defense armies you see at the top.
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  #182  
Old April 9th, 2021, 02:39 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Thanks @Cleon , I'll make some changes!

I've thought more about Arrow Gruts, and if anything, I'd move Mimring up to A-. The Arrow Gruts aren't the good part of that army; Mimring is. Basically every matchup that army has a chance to win, the reason it has a chance to win is because Rae/MWs/Mimring is good. I'm not convinced that 17 AGs are better than 12 GSWs in that build either. But regardless, even if the AGs version is slightly better than the GSWs version (again, I doubt it, but that's besides the point), the AGs don't deserve the A-. Similar to how Nilf gets an A while the GSWs only get an A-, Mimring may deserve to be a little higher than the AGs.
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  #183  
Old April 9th, 2021, 03:31 PM
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Reasonable

Yeah I can see the argument for The Last Mimsy at A-. I'm not QUITE sure he's that good but yeah he'd be a step above the AGs. I like the AGs over Greenscales because of disengage, range, and the ability to spam more of them in.

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  #184  
Old April 9th, 2021, 03:52 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

I like the change with Mimring; I think it nicely encapsulates the debate we've been having (moving that whole army up in the rankings, but just slightly, based on the component that does the damage).

I also think it's good having Mimring & Zelrig in the same tier now. Both obviously have certain matchups where they are better, but I think it's pretty close overall either way.

I feel similarly to Dysole about AGs v. GWs with Mimring; I think disengage lets you do a lot of things to protect your dragon better.
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  #185  
Old April 9th, 2021, 04:05 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Oh, I’m not moving up Mimring yet. I need to see more results first. However, if I did move either AGs or Mimring up, it wouldn’t be the AGs (at least at this point).
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  #186  
Old April 9th, 2021, 04:17 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Whoops, my reading comprehension skills need some help it would seem; I missed the 'if anything'.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on Mimring v. Zelrig regarding their rankings. I certainly get/agree that squadscape is the more prevalent meta (helping Zelrig), but I think you can generally limit the damage to 1 figure at a time. So I suppose to me it comes down to how much you value the potential of an OM1/2 start zone bomb. How much does that play into your current A- ranking for Zelrig?

The other big component admittedly is whether you think GWs or AGs are better with Mimring; obviously if you feel GWs are stronger than that limits Mimring's upside.
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  #187  
Old April 9th, 2021, 04:35 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

I don’t have much time right now, but a few quick points:

1. Zelrig’s survivability is much better (6L/4D as opposed to 5L/3D).
2. One of, if not the, absolute best General Wars armies is Zelrig 4x 10th.
3. Zelrig has years of top results.
4. Zelrig can hit 3-4 figures from 7 spaces away. Fire Line usually requires Mimring to get closer if he wants to hit that many targets, exposing him to more danger.
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  #188  
Old April 9th, 2021, 04:54 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

I can agree with the Mimring assessment. And Mimring is certainly better with AGs purely based on Fire Line itself. GWs WANT to be around Mimring which makes them more likely to be in the way of Fire Line. Note also that if you can get a good fire line but have to move away from GWs and/or Raelin to do so, GWs are might not be optimizable. With the AGs, fire lining your own figure is less concerning. It’s similar to Quahon with Spiders, and a part of the reason why Spiders are better for her (cheaper, more expendable). That’s not even talking about Disengage or their range.

I do find it slightly odd to knock AGs on their offensive ability when that’s not really where their value comes from. It’s like saying the Deathreavers are bad because they don’t provide offense. (Sure, Rats can screen for a lot more armies but the identity of the unit is the same. Also, AGs will always be taking turns unreliant on Scatter to keep a screen and they provide slightly better offense anyways).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
I'm not convinced that 17 AGs are better than 12 GSWs in that build either.
I think it’s a common rule of thumb to not take more points in GWs than your Dragon, meaning a max 3 squads of GWs. That’s 9 GWs, if not just 6 at the lower end of competitive point totals. Compare that to AGs.

Spoiler Alert!

Always 6 figures ahead. Interestingly, 520-525 might be their competitive plateau. From there, other squads can up their numbers so they can trade equally and still have room for range support. I think this is most obvious from Boromir’s VCheese army (Knights x4, Gilbert, Raelin, MW). Knights below that point total have to sacrifice something: A squad or two, range support, Raelin, or a combination of those.

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Last edited by heroscaper2010; April 10th, 2021 at 12:22 PM.
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  #189  
Old April 9th, 2021, 05:59 PM
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Niche =/= Bad

Quote:
Originally Posted by OEAO
I'm legitimately looking for feedback on these rankings. You probably won't change my mind from A-/B+ and up (but you're certainly welcome to try!). I'm primarily interested in hearing thoughts about the more middling and poor units.
Hatamato Taro to C-

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  #190  
Old April 9th, 2021, 10:07 PM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

In traditional double-blind formats, Deadeye Dan deserves his D. He can be a situationally valuable piece of the puzzle in draft formats, though. Either as a low cost, high variance counterdraft, or as a tricky piece of the puzzle in an army draft setting. He's situationally useful somewhere in the C/C- range, I would guess.

If the grades account for some variance in formats.

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  #191  
Old April 10th, 2021, 10:52 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
In traditional double-blind formats, Deadeye Dan deserves his D. He can be a situationally valuable piece of the puzzle in draft formats, though. Either as a low cost, high variance counterdraft, or as a tricky piece of the puzzle in an army draft setting. He's situationally useful somewhere in the C/C- range, I would guess.

If the grades account for some variance in formats.
I mean, even in double-blind, he's still a 10 threat range to anything important. Just stick him at the front of your starting zone and he threatens 2/3s of the map. He's worth at least a C- for only 60 points.
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  #192  
Old April 10th, 2021, 10:58 AM
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Re: OEAO's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I can agree with the Mimring assessment. And Mimring is certainly better with AGs purely based on Fire Line itself. GWs WANT to be around Mimring which makes them more likely to be in the way of Fire Line. Note also that if you can get a good fire line but have to move away from GWs and/or Raelin to do so, GWs are might not be optimizable. With the AGs, fire lining your own figure is less concerning. It’s similar to Quahon with Spiders, and a part of the reason why Spiders are better for her (cheaper, more expendable). That’s not even talking about Disengage or their range.

I do find it slightly odd to knock AGs on their offensive ability when that’s not really where their value comes from. It’s like saying the Deathreavers are bad because they don’t provide offense. (Sure, Rats can screen for a lot more armies but the identity of the unit is the same. Also, AGs will always be taking turns unreliant on Scatter to keep a screen and they provide slightly better offense anyways).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
I'm not convinced that 17 AGs are better than 12 GSWs in that build either.
I think it’s a common rule of thumb to not take more points in GWs than your Dragon, meaning a max 3 squads of GWs. That’s 9 GWs, if not just 6 at the lower end of competitive point totals. Compare that to AGs.

Spoiler Alert!

Always 6 figures ahead. Interestingly, 520-525 might be their competitive plateau. From there, other squads can up their numbers so they can trade equally and still have room for range support. I think this is most obvious from Boromir’s VCheese army (Knights x4, Gilbert, Raelin, MW). Knights below that point total have to sacrifice something: A squad or two, range support, Raelin, or a combination of those.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, but I need more results. Plus, most of those Nilf armies you listed are unoptimized; Marro Warriors + Filler is much worse than getting the 3rd squad of Greenscales. For example, at 450, the best Nilf army is Nilf, Rae, 3x Greenies. Marro Warriors just aren't necessary when you already have a dragon.
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