Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Custom Units & Army Cards > C3V and SoV Customs
C3V and SoV Customs A place for C3V and SoV customs


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #7189  
Old March 11th, 2021, 03:16 PM
superfrog's Avatar
superfrog superfrog is online now
This is merely a joke.
 
Join Date: March 12, 2012
Location: USA - CA - San Gabriel
Posts: 10,779
Images: 7
Blog Entries: 1
superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth superfrog is a man of the cloth
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Welcome back!

Reply With Quote
  #7190  
Old March 11th, 2021, 03:49 PM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Counting gray cells and coming up short... Also, I confess to being a fanboy.
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 26,536
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Welcome back, @vegie !

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
= =
Reply With Quote
  #7191  
Old March 11th, 2021, 04:45 PM
Sir Heroscape's Avatar
Sir Heroscape Sir Heroscape is offline
Sir Formerly Known As adoney
 
Join Date: September 14, 2015
Location: U.S - Idaho - Boise
Posts: 7,244
Images: 106
Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death! Sir Heroscape is hot lava death!
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Cool, cool! Now get to work! :P
Reply With Quote
  #7192  
Old March 15th, 2021, 04:54 PM
Son of Arathorn's Avatar
Son of Arathorn Son of Arathorn is offline
Middle Earth's Saddest Plumber
 
Join Date: February 23, 2011
Location: NM- Santa Fe
Posts: 4,908
Images: 71
Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun Son of Arathorn is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

An oldie and a goodie. Welcome back vegie!
Reply With Quote
  #7193  
Old March 16th, 2021, 01:00 AM
BiggaBullfrog's Avatar
BiggaBullfrog BiggaBullfrog is offline
Usurper of Shenanigans (only under 10 points though)
 
Join Date: December 31, 2009
Location: USA - UT - Vernal
Posts: 2,465
Images: 241
Blog Entries: 4
BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun BiggaBullfrog is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Masha Shingai by @Astroking112

Sometimes I'm like "Okay, I'm going to make this one brief" and then go way too long anyway. This is one of those times. Apologies in advance.

Balance

Sometimes it's hard to tell the balance of a figure without taking in the playability section, and that is very much the case here. Masha has some vague similarities to other cards, but ultimately is such a combination of old with new that it's hard to get a grasp on him before putting him on the board. The stats seem okay (not broken if we're just looking at the card) but the powers are where we'll truly judge his potential.

Theme

A vengeful spirit creature thing that has an overwhelming battlefield presence and avenges fellow samurai? Sure, why not?

I do like the theme for Masha Shingai and think it's strongest draw of the card. The powers play into the theme well (you could nitpick specifics but I won't here) and the stats let him stay strong enough to feel dangerous himself instead of being limited to a cheerleader. I'll admit I'm a bit shaky on Yokai as a race because it's super broad, but it works well enough as intended so it's not something I'll downvote on.

Oh, and the mini looks incredible on the battlefield.

Creativity

Masha sponsors some old powers with a new skin. We've seen attack reduction before with Skull Demons and Corvor, but Masha is the first to apply it as an aura instead of just against figures targeting himself. Fiery Retribution is similar to Torin's Evil Eye Protection, but with reskinned conditions/dice. Overall he does enough new to make him interesting, which is good, while pulling from familiar concepts to stay intuitive, which is also good.

Playability

I was really excited to get Masha on the board. He's got a strong aura but requires an OM to use it, and I'm a big fan of figures that require some finesse to use them well. Unfortunately, when I got him on the board I hit a major snag: Masha is incredibly frustrating to play against.

Here's the thing: Masha's design revolves around punishment-based gameplay. This isn't always a bad thing, since it can create interplay that feels rewarding when done right, but that just isn't there for Masha. Get too close? You lose an attack die. Try to snipe him? Take a wound yourself. He requires an OM to activate his aura, but that lets you reposition him and get an attack of 5 off, so while it's not as immediately beneficial as a turn with whatever else you may have, it's not a huge sacrifice. And long term it results in your opponent having to choose between losing attack dice for 2-3 turns or giving up a large portion of the map (4 space auras are big).

Okay, well Masha can't counter everything, right? And it's the interplay that makes a unit exciting, so how about that?

Alright, so counters for Masha. One is the initiative roll. If he loses initiative, an opponent has a bonus turn of normal attacks to try to hit him hard. But in game that hardly felt rewarding, since it was taking the counter-play out of the hands of the player and into the hands of the dice. If that was what a player was banking on (because armies, map, etc.) it provided a once-per-round opportunity if you were lucky enough (not strategic enough) to win initiative. Yes, there's still the ability to play around initiative, but it turned games into a lot of stale turns while one player was trying to delay until a D20 roll went their way. (Quick sidebar: yes, some figures want to delay until a D20 roll goes their way (Deadeye Dan, for example), but what really burns Masha, IMO, is that he's forcing the opponent to do so, instead of the player volunteering to have their strategy revolve around that.)

The other main counter against Masha is a hero, since the attack debuff only works on squads. This is more consistent than initiative, but dependent on the opponent having drafted a hero that can put pressure on Masha. It's also not foolproof because the Masha player will likely have made the rest of their army realizing the weakness to heroes, and thus have figures to help against that. Which leads me to:

One of the biggest considerations for an army with Masha is the fact that Raelin and Deathreavers exist. (Deathreavers especially because, while Masha's aura does affect friendly non-samurai, the Deathreavers don't mind because they just won't attack.) When you go from fighting Masha with -1 attack to fighting Masha with -1 attack and also he now has 5 defense but also also you're fighting Deathreavers with 6 defense and you still have -1 attack and sure you can try to get Raelin but only if you have range and probably still -1 attack because a 4 space aura is big and if you have melee you're hosed because you can try to flank but guess what Deathreavers move around a lot ... you're getting into that very unfun aspect of Masha. If it was just him he honestly might be okay, but we unfortunately can't just turn off Raelin and Rats. Even if you're looking at what he's "meant" to be played with (Samurai Archers), Raelin and Rats are an intuitive complement for the army that most players will likely almost automatically go to.

Power level sidebar: Rats and Raelin make Masha unbearable, but what about casual metas where they're played less? Games get closer, that's for sure, but the frustration factor was still very present for me. If you're lowering the power level of Masha's army you're (hopefully) also lowering the level for his opponents, and you hit a situation where even if Masha isn't backed by Raelin and Rats he is fighting figures he hurts more than those top tier ones. As enemy armies have fewer figures/activations/options at their disposal, the ceiling for Masha starts to climb on his individual level. Especially against melee, because you're most likely using Samurai Archers.

Now frankly, if we're considering balance and balance alone, Masha is maybe okay. He hard counters some armies (melee squads), but if an opponent knows he's an option they can prepare against him. And would he singlehandedly change a VCheese meta? Probably not. He'd definitely shut some armies down (especially melee (Knights hate him), which is already getting very hurt by Cathar), but some other armies, especially Dragons, would still be fine. But--

Masha's punishment style of gameplay, combined with the fact that he does really well with figures that are already strong and already frustrating to play against, is too much for me. It was a big red flag for me when, after trying him out with a friend, I only wanted to solo test him afterwards because I didn't want to make someone else play against him. A well-designed figure should be one that I actively want to show other people, not one that I don't want to play because I'll feel sorry for the other player.

Summary

Masha has a lot of really good points, and I was really looking forward to playing with him. But the way he influences a game is, in my opinion, not good and, potentially worse, not fun due to the way he punishes an opponent. While probably okay balance-wise in a strong meta, cheese is not the only aspect of the game (or the most important, IMHO). He's not one I want to take home and introduce to my parents.

I vote Nay to induct Masha Shingai into the Soldiers of Valhalla.
Reply With Quote
  #7194  
Old March 25th, 2021, 12:50 PM
Scytale's Avatar
Scytale Scytale is online now
Thanksgiving Custom Contest Champion
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Location: USA - MN - Rochester
Posts: 10,197
Images: 471
Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Wulfing Hunters by @Shiftrex have failed United Fanscape Review and are removed from the process.

The Inner Sanctum was heavily divided on them. While there were some that showed support for Silent Stalkers, others found it non-intuitive and/or unthematic. It is unusual to have a power that depends on adjacency to any figure and would often be mistaken as engagement instead of adjacency, and some questioned why they would uncover each other.

Hunter's Howl was more controversial. While not all are comfortable with the potential of a form of bonding for all Hunters, that can ultimately be worked out in testing. Some disliked that the power doesn't commit to being either Hunter bonding or self-bonding but tries to do both. Others felt that the theme of Silent Stalkers, that of lone stalking hunters, contradicts the theme of Hunters' Howl's pack hunting. Finally, some disliked the odd theme (admittedly present on the Mohicans' War Cry) of choosing not to attack creatures to get more activations. While it feels thematic for hunters to "hold down" their prey for others to arrive, the effect is somewhat the opposite: while they will attack strong prey they can't kill, they will avoid attacking weak prey they can kill.
Reply With Quote
  #7195  
Old March 25th, 2021, 12:52 PM
Shiftrex's Avatar
Shiftrex Shiftrex is online now
 
Join Date: December 23, 2014
Location: Country - State - Major City (Town)
Posts: 668
Images: 39
Blog Entries: 9
Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Welp, guess theyll just stay home and I'll rotate the new custom down the line lol.
Reply With Quote
  #7196  
Old March 25th, 2021, 12:56 PM
Scytale's Avatar
Scytale Scytale is online now
Thanksgiving Custom Contest Champion
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Location: USA - MN - Rochester
Posts: 10,197
Images: 471
Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Welp, guess theyll just stay home and I'll rotate the new custom down the line lol.
I liked them, myself (though I'm personally not keen on bonding for Hunters). A rework that more sharply focuses the design on the silent stalker aspect or the pack hunting aspect would give the unit a good chance of passing.
Reply With Quote
  #7197  
Old March 25th, 2021, 01:19 PM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Counting gray cells and coming up short... Also, I confess to being a fanboy.
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 26,536
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I will share my own thoughts on the Wulfling Hunters here, and they are similar to what Scy presented.

It is not a sharply focused design. It wants to do too much, mechanically. What I would encourage our own designers to do, internally in the C3V, if they had gotten that far, is to identify what was essential to the theme, and strip out everything else. See what it looks like then, and go from there.

Thanks for sharing the excellent custom with the community, @Shiftrex . It's a good design, and *all* designers brave enough to put their work here, under this intense microscope, deserve our gratitude and a round of applause.

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
= =
Reply With Quote
  #7198  
Old March 25th, 2021, 01:22 PM
Shiftrex's Avatar
Shiftrex Shiftrex is online now
 
Join Date: December 23, 2014
Location: Country - State - Major City (Town)
Posts: 668
Images: 39
Blog Entries: 9
Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby! Shiftrex rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Who all reviews things in the initial stage?
Reply With Quote
  #7199  
Old March 25th, 2021, 02:27 PM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Counting gray cells and coming up short... Also, I confess to being a fanboy.
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 26,536
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The SoV judges decide if it's something they're interested in. If it is, with their vote out here, then they'll bring it to the C3V.

The C3V Inner Sanctum will then vote on if it's something that, if it were to pass SoV testing, would be suitable for the Heroscape canon. That discussion is in the Inner Sanctum, like all of our work, and therefore you don't see it.

It used to be that the first vote was the greater hurdle, and for a long, long time, no unit (as far as I can recall) failed at that first Inner Sanctum vote stage. Voters are just people, though, and in the case of these two voting pools (the SoV and the larger C3V Inner Sanctum), small groups of people. And turnovers in personnel have led us to a place where passage at the Inner Sanctum stage is not something that can be taken for granted any longer.

I am quite confident that, for some (or all) designers, it must be an unpleasant surprise to get over the public hurdle, only to stumble at the hidden one. I regret that it happens, but I won't apologize for taking our role seriously. If a designer can't persuade a simple majority of C3V voters that a unit belongs in the canon, then perhaps it's just not that design's time. Scytale (or anyone) may have a different view of what happens and how things came to be the way they are, and I encourage them to share, if they want.

If you're interested in discussing our internal objections more, I encourage you to tag a few of us in your own design thread, and I expect someone will be along to discuss the issues with you. There are some specifics that Scy and I have glossed over, but if you want to hear them, I'll share.

Again, and I can't say this enough, thank you for bringing us a good unit for our consideration.

(This post was probably way more than an answer to your question, but I always feel bad when we kick a unit at this stage, so the guilt is pouring out. )

C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
Designing Customs? Help With Wurdz
= =
Reply With Quote
  #7200  
Old March 25th, 2021, 03:16 PM
P_J_Keller's Avatar
P_J_Keller P_J_Keller is offline
VIG & Battleship Galaxies Weasel
 
Join Date: May 9, 2006
Location: MI - Shelby
Posts: 211
P_J_Keller knows what's in an order marker P_J_Keller knows what's in an order marker P_J_Keller knows what's in an order marker
Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Just a C3V and SoV fan here, I hope that Shiftrex will revisit the idea.

I really liked the ideas behind this two person squad.

Plus I already ordered the minis
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Custom Units & Army Cards > C3V and SoV Customs
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:25 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.